Coup de grace

A last thank you to those of you complimenting us on the interview on Newsweek.Com.

We've had no end of complimentary emails, and we're all in favor. Heads are swelling as we speak.

But on the other side, a special thank you must go out to those of you who have managed to cobble together such erudite, well-informed and obviously hard-thought critiques of the site, our plans, and indeed our supposed heritage (or lack thereof). It's emails like these that keep us going. If you can't laugh, you have nothing.

Comments

[Roey in NC]

God Bless you,
But while your at it, check out this website called Democracy Aid 04' http://hem.passagen.se/democracyaid/. Its a campaign put together by some young swedish folks trying to get every EU citizen to donate $1 to Moveon.org.

[Joey]

Is this you?

Major Indicators that Stockholm Syndrome has developed:

Victim has feelings of love and hate for Saddam / Osama.

Victim is very grateful for any kindness shown by Saddam / Osama.

Victim denies or rationalizes violence by Saddam / Osama.

Victim focuses on Saddam's / Osama's needs.

Victim sees world from Saddam's / Osama's perspective.

Victim perceives those trying to help him/her as the "bad guys" and Saddam / Osama are the "good guys".

Victim finds it difficult to abandon Saddam / Osama even when it is okay to do so.

Victim fears Saddam / Osama will come back to get him/her, even if he is dead or in prison.

Victim shows signs of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) including depression, low self-esteem, anxiety reactions, paranoia and feelings of helplessness, and recurring nightmares and flashbacks.

Is this you?

Stockholm Syndrome is curable. If you suffer from these symptoms, I urge you to seek professional help.

[chris]

Why don't you just stay in the U.K?
So many more people love Mr. Bush . Freedom is *NOT* free. Were you born before September 11, 2001? Get real kid.

[peter]

The NW articles states that you are a web designer---if this site is a reflection of your work/abilities, then like your cause it is laughable. Enjoy the protest and remember it is because of people like GWB that you can protest. PS bet no where near the numbers quoted in the article show up. Now for those of you, like my self, who support GWB here is a site worth looking at www.xdesign.ws/sot

[Adele]

How refreshing you are!! It is so utterly frustrating watching my fellow Americans backing Bush and his obvious ignorance. Thanks for all that you are doing.

Adele,
Boulder, CO, USA

[Donald X. M. Fernandez de la Reguera R.]

My dad was foreign born-you are absoltely correct(Newsweek)when you stated Europeans are quick to see/feel the repercussions of Bush's
insanity. Unfortunately many here at home fail to investigate/monitor just what is happening to our civil liberties. Iraqui invasion was ill conceived; however we are now engaged. Very best regards. dxmfrr

[sean]

Please do everyone from the States a huge favor and stay in Europe with the rest of the Socialist ass-wipes.

I bet a pussy like you thinks it is cool to agree with your Eurotrash butt-buddies when they talk shit about your homeland.

Like most Bush bashers, you seem long on criticisms and short on solutions.

Feel free to stay in Europe.

In the same issue of Newsweek. Please read and come to grips with the true source of anti-American sentiment in Europe.

Let’s Face It

What the anti-Bush protestors in London are complaining about is American power, and their sense of powerlessness

http://www.msnbc.com/news/995254.asp?0cv=KB10

[Joey]

Peter:

I can only add one word to the message of your site: http://www.reoutfitters.com/WeSupportU/WeSupportU.htm

Amen!

With regards to the protesters, there's really nothing new here. General Washington had his detractors as well. They called them Tories. But General Washington persevered.

And in well over two hundred years, nothing has changed. Tomorrow, the descendants of those Tories - the nay-sayers, will assemble in London to protest. While the descendants of General Washington and his compatriots continue to fight for their right to do so.

[kris]

You are a complete joke. The majority is not with you, only your leftist friends.

[Jerry]

Go for it! It takes courage to swim upstream. Cowards prefer to follow the majority. Wish I was there to march with you. Ignore the mental midgets whose intellectual best is to hurl profanity and insults.

[Joey]

Donald:

Ha Ha! I'm just ROTFLMHO at what you wrote:

--------------
My dad was foreign born-you are absoltely correct(Newsweek)when you stated Europeans are quick to see/feel the repercussions of Bush's
insanity.
--------------

Oh yeah! Gotta give those Europeans credit for being really quick on the uptake. Like Europe was only ENGULFED IN FLAMES before a man named Adolf Hitler got their attention. Yup. Really sharp those Europeans are.

Oh please.

[bob]

Try running some of your anti-country/gov't smack in No. Korea? See how long you'd live? 1 or 2 hours maybe. Your citizenship should be revoked. You just HATE Pres. Bush because he is a "real" born-again believer in Jesus Christ and nothing else. It's all a battle against Jesus Christ.
Most people see right thru people like you.
(people with no morals,values or sense of reality).
Your protesting will do nothing to change things
Who is going to unseat Pres. Bush for another term???? Nazi's? Communists?? Democrats? YOU???
HA HA....what a foolish person you are to have fallen for the lies of radical liberal nay-sayers.
Since you hate America so much, don't come back. Starve to death in No. Korea, get beat to death because your white in Africa. Like those options?? Obviously you do otherwise you would not be doing what your doing now.

[Cool Beans]

I have to say that while you guys continue to bash Bush on the war. The IRAQI's are now FREE! Pure and simple. You also say that you are opposed on other issues? What would those be?

Below is a little excerpt that details why the Liberals of the world will never be in power as long as lies and emotions are their key tools.

------------------------------------

There is new data for 2001. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% fell to 33.89% from 37.42% in 2000. This is mainly because their income share (not just wages) fell from 20.81% to 17.53%. However, their average tax rate actually rose slightly from 27.45% to 27.50%.

This proves that it was not the tax cut that caused revenues from the rich to fall, but the recession and the stock market crash. In other words, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you are going to benefit from the rich paying more taxes, due to progressivity, on the upside, you are going to lose more revenue from these people on the downside. This is a good argument for reducing progressivity.

The bottom 50% is paying a tiny bit of the taxes, so you can't give them much of a tax cut by definition. Yet these are the people to whom the Democrats claim to want to give tax cuts. Remember this the next time you hear the "tax cuts for the rich" business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.

-------------------------------------

End today's lesson. Please study this, there will be a test the next time you hear the words, "tax cut cause the deficit."

[Sheri]

Why do you care about America and our political process, who is President, what party is the majority in the House...anything related to being an American? I know you don't. Pretend all you want...in reading your comments I have found more references to "me...and the media and me....I...yada...yada...yada..." than to any serious minded thought or research. Are you uneducated? What makes you think that President Bush made the decisions he has on a whim? He has many well informed advisors that have researched the situation in Iraq, people that have put themselves in danger, just to get to truth to us. Stop riding on President Bush's coat-tails, if you want to make a name for yourself, do it in a respectable fashion, don't slap the military in the face, telling them you don't support the war...which to them means you don't support them. Please stay there. And keep your opinions of OUR country to yourself. If you ever discover what REAL bravery is (you know, like the young Marine that came home from Iraq only to find out that he must go back in two weeks....and was relieved because he didn't want to 'abandon' his comrades), you'll realize how blind you are...the Iraqi citizens (NOT the villians that were in control and the few radicals left) want us there. They don't want to live in terror any longer. Maybe you should have been there instead all this time...you'd love George Dubya.

[Geoff]

YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL MORONS. Do you really think that the right way to stop the terrorists is not to kill them? How do you propose stopping them? Reasoning with them? HAHAHAHA - just like Neville Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler and Mussolini?? That was really successful. Are we supposed to appease the terrorists?! You are probably the same people who think the Palestinians are right to blow themselves up and take innocent Israelis lives.

You really have nothing better to do with your lives than BITCH about the policies of the men (Bush, Blair) who had the balls to stand up against terrorism and totalitarianism? GET A LIFE!! Better yet, GET A JOB!!! I'm not even going to talk about Afghanistan - since the Taliban might as well have been right out of the dark ages of Europe. And I'm sure you want women treated the way the Taliban treated them - that would make sense for you people. Saddam Hussein has killed more muslims than any other muslim in the history of the world and you continue to look at America as the bad guy? What a joke. The Europeans would all be speaking Russian (let alone German - but I won't go there..) right now and living under the guise of communism if it wasn't for American defense. You all need to wake up and see what is going on in the world. Saddam Hussein killed and tortured more people in a week (every week) than America has since the outset of the war. Are you seriously saying that Iraq is not a better place since he's gone -- if so, you are doing nothing but deluding yourselves -- which I don't doubt since you obviously have no grip on reality. I hope you spread this around and you all have a good laugh about it. If you were somewhat smart, you may even stop to think about what is written here and think twice about it... but I think that is giving you too much credit.

From America with Love,
A VERY PROUD American

[Kris]

Good grief. These commenters make me more ashamed to be American than Bush ever did. Hang in there, Luke. If I was in London, I'd be there with you tomorrow.

[Scott]

Feel free to be ashamed Kris, as a former 6 year Army Vet, I'll continue to be proud. When it reaches kill or be killed, I know my choice and am saddened when I hear yours.

[Luke]

Some of you have made good points.

None of it has changed my mind in the slightest, though.

And attacking my patriotism on the basis of me disagreeing with the President is a pretty weak argument. I love America; I hate what's being done to it and I'm doing what I can to fix things.

Man, this is cool. Finally getting some good old-fashioned outrage here.

[abdul]

it is called the Helsinki Syndrome, not the Stockholm Syndrome. get a geography lesson

[Kaj]

Erm, Luke... Sorry mate, but it's definitely Stockholm Syndrome, and this is where it originated from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrmalmstorg_robbery

To the "people" here who do nothing but shout slurs at Luke and the people who share his opinions: all you are doing here is offer proof of the prejudices many Europeans, South Americans, Asians, Australians and Africans have. Those prejudices are, amongst others, that:
-Americans are generally rude;
-Americans generally shout instead of talk;
-Americans generally talk and are not very good listeners;
-Americans generally brush oppositional arguments aside as "rubbish" and instead only offer their own arguments (a practice which could easily be called "arrogance").

So, once again in general, all you shouters do is prove what many people across the globe have been saying about you for years.

Which makes it all the more easier for those who oppose you. Any prejudiced non-American will only need to surf to this comments-page, point his or her finger at the screen, and say: "I rest my case."

[art]

Wow. That's quite a trolling you're getting there. Did someone post a link to your site on freerepublic.com or something?

[Charles]

Wby not interview some U.S. WW2 survivors who liberated France and ask them what they think of Europe, instead of blue haired, pierced Europeans, what they think of America? They're the same Jew hating pacifists they were in 1940 when Hitler and Mussolini were running all over them. That's why it doesn't matter what they think. It looks like you're right at home over there. You probably have a promising future at Newsweek, also. They're probably in love with you at this point.

[Tiny]

Hey Kaj, actually Abdul made the post about Helsinki syndrome. This board makes the name of the poster appear to be the one below it.

[Kaj]

Oops...! Sorry Tiny, sorry Luke :)

And once again, people aren't reading, and just keep on shouting (see Charles' post, for instance).

By the way, Charles: good idea! Go talk to some US WW2 veterans and ask them. Because it just so happens that I saw a tv programme in which US WW2 veterans were interviewed, and guess what?

-They didn't like your president's way of going about;
-They didn't (and still don't)like the fact that the Federal subsidies for the Veteran's Association in the US have been cut;
-They didn't like the fact that they have to turn to Canadian websites to get their prescription drugs because of the Bush legislation. Granted, this accounts for just about every (older) person with an average income, but hey...

[Kaj]

oops

My bad, subsidies for VA weren't cut - just saw an article which stated that VA funding was exempted from cuts. The man interviewed was probably ill-informed |-)

[JP]

I suppose all wonderful patriots like Joey and Geoff, are looking forward to when their illustrious leader decides to take down Iran and Syria.
I suppose they'll be waving the flag and shouting that they stand for freedom (although apparently not freedom of expression). I suppose they'll be buying every line the Pentagon and the White House dish out to them, after all - with all the evidence that has been uncovered of WMD's and the like, who can blame them. Then when the time comes for Bush to announce the draft, they'll be first in the (front)line, proud to die in a land they can't even find on a map so that the oil barons can benefit from another pipeline in American hands. They can also be happy knowing that their dear leader has guaranteed such prosperity for his defence contractor friends, who will be toasting his name for generations to come, if there are any.
Joey and Geoff won't care about the fact that their leader, his father, and Reagan made Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden what they are today, and that their foreign policies are the direct cause of the problems the world faces today, and are one of the top two main causes for the rapid spread of extremist terrorism in the post cold war world. Afterall, they never really think about the world beyond their own borders, and their press never has anything good to say about the wider world anyway, and that's the way the American press has been designed to be nowdays. It's designed to appeal to Geoff and Joey.
Well, all I can say is that, when the draft comes, we all remember Joey and Geoff, and know that they died for something they believed in.

[IHL]

love your site! go you! you make me proud of be an American! wish i could be there!!! ignore the right wing wackos who are trolling here...

[IHL]

PS. please post pictures!!

[Jenny]

I am an American currently living in Scotland. I love my country and I am very patriotic. I may not agree with George Bush on every issue, but I can tell you one thing, to sit back an allow a monster like Saddam Hussien and his sons plan and plot to keep killing and distroying, is not my idea of life! I've got an idea for you, pal, why don't you move to Iraq and see how far you get with that big mouth of yours. How dare you discredit so many so that you can claim your 15 minutes of fame.

You, Mr. Robinson, are an asshole!

[Kaj]

I have a question: has every flaming American here had a lobotomy or something?

Be good boys & girls and remember that calling people names and so on makes you look stupid.

In fact, it makes you look 100% idiotic. Mmmkay?

[Hunter]

Enjoy your little protest today. In the meantime, families in Turkey will begin the painful process of burying their dead from the terrorist attacks in Istanbul.

Your anti-American, anti-freedom protest couldn't have come at a better time. Nice work.

For an encore, maybe your group should march in one of Kim Jong-Il's oppressed North Korean provinces or setup a rally for Saddam Hussein in downtown Baghdad?

Hunter

[carlene]

As an American citizen I want to say I support you 100% and I wish I could join your protest.
The "go it alone" approach to this war was wrong, the misinformation we were fed was criminal, and our exist strategy is a joke. I'm glad Saddam is gone... but is he Really?? Maybe several more billion dollars will help us find him... we've already put our grandchildren in debt, might as well pass it on to our great grandchildren as well.

[jim]

Wow, you must be very brave to be an American apologist. I like how you have encouraged the flag burning of Old Glory. Why you love Saddam and Usama so much I will never know. Figure it out, kid.

[hrm]

GWB shows his character through his domestic policies. If you look at the actions of his administration and the government under his leadership, every decision has been made with one or all of the 3 R's in mind: the Rich, Religious, and for Re-election. Every "patriotic" speech he makes about Terrorism and Iraq is a speech where he isn't having to defend his horrible domestic agenda. The American middle class is having the rug pulled out from under them - it is going to take decades to repair the damage. Wake up America! (Yes, this is my opinion, and I've done the reading to have earned it.)

[Wes]

God bless you for what you're doing. I wish I could be there, but I'm with you in spirit.
-Wes
Atlanta, Georgia

[georgia peach]

While we fight over Iraq (where there is true moral complexity and endless fuel for debate and America's place in the world), we neglect to debate the issues we should be debating heading into an election year - issues that the Bush administration is on the wrong side of - issues that represent the interests of 85% of all Americans. REAL quality of life issues. Civil liberties. Separation of church and state. Global warming. Accountability for big business. Pollution in our drinking water. Minimum gas mileage requirements for SUVs. Social Security. Medicare. (Funding for Headstart, which for every $1 spent will save taxpayers over $7 in Social Security and Medicare.) Listen, if you can read, do it. For the list goes on.... and on..... and on..... and on.... I am an American, everyone I love is American, and as I protest Bush it is precisely because of what he is doing to America. I am from a Navy family, my grandfather and 2 of his brothers fought in WWII and I understand and appreciate the sacrifices that great Americans have made and are making simply because they are called. They HAVE TO trust our leaders to send them into worthy battles, and they should be able to trust our leaders to preserve and protect a free country WORTH FIGHTING FOR. Let us pray that they don't reinstate the draft. Bush, and the members of our government, do not know anyone who will be sent to fight. Rich people do not join the military.

[Informo]

From the Reuters photos I can see theres a fair few "Proud of My Country" signs at the front of the march, and Luke is visible a third of the way from the top on the right.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/031120/325/eei4z.html

[Greg Lichko]

It is a little odd but very heartening to see Americans abroad leading the charge against Bush. I think it is a terrific idea for those living and working outside of America to be heard.

Given the Democrats are basically irrelevant, if only we could find a candidate who is simply not Bush. Most people would support a nameless, faceless candidate so long as it is not Bush. Maybe we need to have a referendum now, not an election in 04.

Truly, I can't think of a single important issue upon which I agree with Bush and, if one day I actually did agree with him on something, what would I do?

Anyway, great idea, keep up the good work and spread the word to other countries as well.

[Justin]

I happen to be from a rich family, and I chose to ENLIST in the army because it is every American's duty to defend our great country. I am tired of all these Communists burning the flag and pissing on the ashes. I am proud to protect our country and all these people who do nothing but try to tear Her down. The troops still in Iraq and other theatres around the world the need support of true Americans, not misguided boys and girls who do not know the meaning of sacrifice. As for anyone wishing to protest our President and Country in other lands, Stay there where you are at least marginally appreaciated.

[georgia peach]

Justin, in the interest of vigorous discussion (the cornerstone of a free and democratic society), I'd like to know, specifically, what you think Bush has done for America via his domestic policy? I'm seriously interested in your opinion, and the opinions of all the other Bush lovers here.

[Mike]

Well done brave souls. It takes true courage to endure the crass insults of your fellow citizens in order that the truth may be heard. You are a true patriot...too bad so many of your countrymen are too blinded by the biaised American press to appreciate what you are trying to do.
P.S. It isn't only Europeans that disagree with Bush's warmongering, imperialistic policies. I am Canadian. I live right next door to the U.S. I know of no one that supports or condones Bush's agenda. We all see Iraq as an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation. Such a shame that while Americans are usually very friendly and welcoming people, they are also so often ignorant of the rest of the world.
Mike

[chad]

Justin, thank you for your service to our country. But, don't you realize that George means for you stay home and stay rich and alive so that you can vote for him? Do you really believe that loving our American troops, America, and the "principles for which it stands" is as simple as waving a flag? Defending freedom is about more than embracing war.

[Informo]

The "Proud Of My Country, Shamed By my President" placards are also visible in the Guardians coverage.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gallery/image/0,8543,-11004801570,00.html

[chrish]

I don't like the war either however,
I don't see as there was any other way around it. The terrorist's, those people YOU never seem to speak out against, have been killing innocent men, women, children all in the name of their religion for years now. Hussein for years, and again YOU never uttered a sound, was butchering his people. We, regretably, allowed this to go on until now. To YOU and all the other protestors and nay sayers I would really, really like to know WHY YOU remained silent during the butcheries of Saddam, silent during the mass murders in Herz-Kovina, I think that's spelled correctly, the suicide bombings in Israel, Turkey, Iraq, and even there in England and YOU ALL REMAIN SILENT???? NOT A SOUND, NOT A WORD, NOT A PEEP FROM ANY OF YOU, Why is that???? I might be willing to listen to your words but, I find your one sidedness offensive, and nothing more than hypocrisy.... When YOU people begin shouting, protesting, and condemning ALL terrorist attacks, brutal regimes like Hussein's, violence like Bin-Ladens, and all the other terrorist acts & groups THEN, AND ONLY THEN WILL I AND MOST EVERYONE ELSE LISTEN TO WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. Until that time, which I'm sorry to say will probably never happen, YOU people are just a loud mouthed, nay-saying, whining crowd of HYPOCRITS pointing a lot of fingers and generating a lot of hot air.

[Rob]

Your political views are outrageous and laughable. My guess is your grandparents and parents would be ashamed of you. The struggle we are facing won't be overcome by sticking our heads in the sand in the hope it goes away. The smaller the world gets the closer these dangerous issues touch our world. England made the mistake of placating Germany in the 30s and a world war resulted from it. In our own time, the world must now make a choice: Either stand up and confront evil or close our eyes and hope it goes away. We already know the results of closing our eyes - 9/11.

[Uvavo]

Just one problem with your argument Rob - Assides for claiming to speak for someones relatives who you do not know - Bush hasn’t really prevented anything, has he? In fact the net effect of the war on terrorism has been to create more terrorism. And lets not forget that the events of 9/11 were the result of the actions of terrorists with which previous Republican administrations have been rather to cosy with in the past.

[Paul]

It's seriously amusing to read the vitriol coming from some of the people above. Yep, we're unpatriotic, Saddam-loving communists. Holy crap, you figured us out!

One funny thing above is Justin's post where he's railing on "us" for never having served in the military -- somehow, to him, that makes us unqualified to criticise GWB. But, uh, remind me of Bush's military record...? He's so un-bothered with critical thought that he's turned into a sheep. Baa. Truly sad.

Another funny thing is how all these poor saps really believe what GWBs government and the US media tell them. There are many comments above about how Iraqis are free now so we should just shut up because that was the goal in the first place...um...huh? There is NO question that Saddam was a Grade A prick. Problem is that's not the reasoning the US gov't gave to convince people of the need to go to war -- if you remember correctly, the reason back then was WMDs. Where are those WMDs again?

Ya know, there are many Grade A prick world leaders out there who should be capped . . . they just don't all happen to have such convenient "reasons" to justify going in and taking them out (Jong Il in Korea and Eyadema in Togo to name but a couple). At the end of the day though, America invaded a sovereign country to remove a distasteful leader and push forward this sort of American neo-colonialism as well as capitalism in order to secure more power in the Middle East and get a non-OPEC member to sell us cheap dino-juice.

Back to the original point, the Iraqis seem pretty thankful that the US came and "liberated" them, don't they? How many soldiers have been killed since the war "ended"? Frankly, this is the thing that I'm most pissed off about that I'm surprised more military people aren't up in arms about. I love my country. I love what we stand for. I totally respect and support the people in our military. That's why I'm red with anger that some Yale frat boy asshole is sending our boys and girls over there to fight an unjust and unnecessary war. Bush is reckless ("Bring them on!" Who the CRAP says stuff like that???) and THAT is what pisses me off. Bush lied and our soldiers died, end of story.

I love my country, I am proud of my country. I am proud of our soldiers. And it's for those exact reasons that I detest GWB and what he's done and is doing to something I care about so deeply. So call me a communist, call me a "pussy", tell me I have "butt buddies" for friends (as one poster above did). Whatever.

Anyway, good work, Luke. Very impressed with what you've done in such a short amount of time. Keep it up!

[placer]

Anyone who was President at 9/11 was justified in going after Afghanistan. America, has, in the past, been justified in bombing Iraq. America's in pretty darned comfortable moral territory having removed Saddam Hussein. But it takes much more than a few sensible, indeed "no-brainer" attacks on foreign countries to be a great leader. A few sensible attacks on hostile foreign countries doesn't make George Bush a good, or even an adequate president.

[thehorror]

I wonder if the world really is safer now. Or maybe we are just kidding ourselves....maybe it makes us feel good to have someone to kill in retaliation. It's beautiful baby!

[placer]

Sensible - read: "popular"

[bobo]

chrish,

If you have an argument, make it. But stop having apple-pie-patriotism and you're-a-commie-insults stand in for intelligent discussion. It's boring.

You have no idea what anyone has protested, written letters about, or demonstrated against in the past. Your prejudice blinds you.

[Joey]

Luke - Something interesting has happened here:

Prior to November 20, most of your postings just elicited a few favorable responses from a small number of like minded individuals. With the exposure of this page via a reference in an article on MSNBC, all of a sudden responses have shot up dramatically, and the responses are generally not as much in favor of your position as they once were. This may perhaps be a more reliable indication of just how unacceptable your views are to most Americans.

Now a few responses to what has been posted above.

To Chris, who wrote:
-----------
Good grief. These commenters make me more ashamed to be American than Bush ever did.
-----------

Why is it that the leftist rhetoric, a la Chris, the Dixie Chicks, etc. is to be ashamed of being American because of dissenting opinions from the right? After all, the right to voice a dissenting opinion is one of the great charateristics of our Democratic system. I've yet to hear one conservative voice the opinion that the Dixie Chicks or Chris make them ashamed to be American. It's just an interesting observation of mine. Make of it what you will...

To Kaj who wrote:
-----------
all you are doing here is offer proof of the prejudices many Europeans, South Americans, Asians, Australians and Africans have.
-----------

Hmm, where I come from, a prejudice, is generally considered to be an unfavorable attitude. However, if you want to admit to the fact that there's a large number of folks (perhaps yourself included?) who are prejudiced against Americans, I appreciate your candor.

Kaj further wrote:
--------------
-Americans generally brush oppositional arguments aside as "rubbish" and instead only offer their own arguments (a practice which could easily be called "arrogance").
--------------

OK, Kaj, just for kicks. Instead of offering my own arguments, I'll offer yours and you'll offer mine. Are you smoking something? I mean, what's wrong with me voicing my own opinion instead of walking in blind lockstep with yours? Do I understand you correctly? You have the right to voice your opinion, but if I voice mine, that's arrogance? I hope my opinion doesn't make you ashamed to be an American. (Actually, that last was a lie. I couldn't care less.)

[Rob]

I can't belive you people. All of you! You actually are trying to justify the terrorists bombings, murders of innocent people, and mind set of pure hatred! You think this all stems from American foreign policy? Unbeliveable.

[Joey]

JP:
----------------
... irrelevancies snipped...
and are one of the top two main causes for the rapid spread of extremist terrorism in the post cold war world.
----------------

Maybe this will be simple enough for you to grasp. The top reason for terrorism is terrorists. The solution is to take them down.

-----------
Afterall, they never really think about the world beyond their own borders,
-----------

Huh, the way you talk, you'd think that the world was created when the Berlin wall fell, and that nothing prior to that has any relevance. Ronald Reagan (although to your view, probably never thought about the world beyond his own borders) brought that wall down and he acheived it through strength. Not by appeasement, candle-light vigils, or poetic protest.

--------------
and their press never has anything good to say about the wider world anyway, and that's the way the American press has been designed to be nowdays. It's designed to appeal to Geoff and Joey.
--------------

Ha, that's a chuckle. Most of the conservative thinkers I know complain that the Press is too liberal.

------------
Well, all I can say is that, when the draft comes, we all remember Joey and Geoff, and know that they died for something they believed in.
------------

Now that you mention it, you my friend would do well to remember today, that your freedom, wherever in the world you may be, is likely the direct result of American willingness to stand and fight for Freedom. And that most catastrophic events in world history have arisen due to the desire for appeasement and the unwillingness to confront evil.

[Jim]

Excellent points, Joey.

[Laustin]

I respect the right of Free Speech we have in the US. We as a country have a long history of debate and political discourse.
However, I do find it very disturbing and disrespectful of the expats in London to allow themselves to be used as propaganda by leftist political groups in Europe. Plain and simple they are being used as propagandized political pawns in much the same way a terrorist may use a hostage. The truly sad part is that these expats are not smart enough to realize that. I liken these protesting expats to family members who instead of voicing their concerns to the family instead go out and talk to the neighbors. This doesn't solve any issues and really makes them look foolish. Do these individuals think they are adding anything to the debate? I doubt it, but hey they are getting attention which is probably what they really want regardless of the issue. As for the European political groups they are happy to oblige as they take any chance they can get to cut on the US.
I lived in London and saw the political protests while I was there, thankfully I didn't have to endure seeing any of my brethren running down our home.

[Joey]

Luke:
--------------
Some of you have made good points.

None of it has changed my mind in the slightest, though.
--------------

Typical. If they're good points, why has your mind not changed, even in the slightest? Don't you feel the need to consider the points, to debate the points in order to arrive at a well-reasoned conclusion?

If your mind's already made up, perhaps you're no longer interested in the facts?

Typical...

[Kevin]

"Ha, that's a chuckle. Most of the conservative thinkers I know complain that the Press is too liberal."

That, my angry spamming freeper friend, is because you live in an echo chamber. And, fyi, most conservative thinkers don't actually think that - it just makes for a convenient rhetorical strategy. Note RNC chair Rich Bond: "There is some strategy to it [bashing the 'liberal' media].... If you watch any great coach, what they try to do is 'work the refs.' Maybe the ref will cut you a little slack on the next one."

At any rate, Luke, congrats on the heightened profile for you and the site. Hope everything went well today.

[Christopher]

I find it very sad that anyone would interview you. Your arguements and reasoning are not thought out at all. The truth is if GWB did everything you wanted you would still be upset, I am really sick of this blind hatred thing people have againist him (and towards Clinton on the other side).

[chrish]

Bobo, {Reply from Chrish}

"apple-pie-patriotism", "you're-a-
commie insults"?? What the hell are you talking about? Please, if you can, inform me where I can find news reports regarding Protests and Condemnations at the same level and amount as what YOU people are trying to push. "intelligent discussion"?
I'll be more than happy to "intelligently discuss" with you or anybody else about these events IF you are able to refrain from sinking down to the levels of name calling and condescending attitude. "Hypocrits"? Yes, absolutely I view YOU people as hypocrits. Are there any protests, shouting, or condemnations of the attacks and the attackers that just occurred in Istanbul or Turkey? Nope, once again You're silent, but oh wait a minute, You're all involved in protesting against Bush aren't you?
Like I said, I'm not for War I would rather there be peace. I would prefer that those teorrorist groups speak there minds with some semblance of civility without the mass murders they have committed and continue to do. Did YOU or your crowd come out in protest or condemnation of the attacks that occurred on 9/11 or were you part of the crowd that was saying "they got what they deserved", or perhaps "They had it coming"? If YOU and people like YOU are going to speak out against one side then you better start speak out against those who are committing the terrorist attacks..

[Jim]

Dear Protesters for Peace,

Can you let me know when you will protest against the atrocities of Saddam Hussein, Kim Jung Il or Usama bin laden? Let me know when you are having those and I will be happy to show up. Or maybe you will be erecting statues of these people. Remember, be big on criticism and short on solutions.

Thanks.

[Joey]

Kevin:
--------------
That, my angry spamming freeper friend.
--------------

Please go over my posts and cite one instance to support your assertion that I am

A - Angry
B - Spamming
C - A Freeper (whatever that is)

I figure that when a guy starts calling me names, he pretty much knows already that he's lost the argument.

[Sarah Forrester]

Luke, once again thanks for taking all this flak for all of us. Today was brilliant, and I can't wait to start working on getting Americans living abroad to vote next November.

To the detractors, perhaps if you've got so much to say, you should get your own web site.

[Paul]

Jim said:

Can you let me know when you will protest against the atrocities of Saddam Hussein, Kim Jung Il or Usama bin laden? Let me know when you are having those and I will be happy to show up. Or maybe you will be erecting statues of these people. Remember, be big on criticism and short on solutions.

Thanks.

-------------------------------

I will protest each and every one of these people when they come to London; actually, even if they go to the States. I'd happily fly home and engage in massive protest against Hussein, Osama or Jong Il.

[Chrish]

Paul,

Why do you have to wait until Hussein, Osama, or Jong II comes to London or the States? I would think that if one is against the War, or violence, or murder as so many have stated they would not "wait" until somebody shows up in this country or that but, would be in the streets protesting, condemning, and rebuking those who comitted the acts of violence. Two terrorist attacks have been committed in the past few days. Not a word, not a sound, not a protest anywhere has been staged. I hear the rhetoric against the US & Pres. Bush but, absolutely nothing against Bin Laden, Al Qaida, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, nor any other terrorist groups so what gives? Am I to assume that you and other's protesting against Bush are OK with the terrorist attacks, it's OK to kill innocent people on buses, in buildings, in schools, or in restaurants? Then perhaps it would be OK if Pres. Bush or the US began committing terrorist attacks against the terrorists? They blow up a bus then we would blow up one of their buses or they blow up a school then we could blow up one of the neighborhoods that they hide in in the same fashion..... Would that then be OK with you people? I'm really curious to know.....

[Marry Scott]

The champion of this site is just a glory hound jumping on the bandwagon of popular opinion (much Hitler or Stalin did) to win people's interest. I wouldn't give him much attention or his cause much thought.

[Nick]

Well done everyone. Today was brilliant. Even if the pulling-down-the-statue thing was a bit sad. I feel it made light of something that must have been very special to the long-suffering iraqis.

And as far as today's attacks go, do we need further evidence that a change is needed? There can be no excuse or justification for these atrocities, but there are reasons. Let's hope that the masses back home demand a better answer that "They attack us because we love freedom." After all, no one bombs the canadians, swedes or dutch. They love freedom.

Anyway, stick to your guns, ignore the bleating androids of the blind right, and don't forget to vote.

God bless America.
God bless humanity.
God forgive our "president"

[bobo]

Chrish,

How would you know what me or my "like" have protested or voiced dissent against? Do you really think that people who don't approve of George Bush as a president, by definition, love terrorists? ...Then you are too stupid to talk to.

There's more to Bush than attacking Iraq or fighting the war against terror. He's in charge of some other things, you know?

Why in the world would you think that people who happen to think that Bush is one of the worst presidents in history would be GLAD for the deaths of innocent Americans (9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq), or Turks (Istanbul is a city in Turkey, by the way!). This is a revolting statement and only proves your level of ignorance and prejudice.

I think you'll find that many people feel that the American people (God bless us), need to be protected FROM George Bush and his wretched policies for his people. National Security aside (if you can), what a disaster he has been!

I also would challenge your view that the war in Iraq is about our National Security. Do you realize that effort has been diverted from the search for Osama Bin Laden and his organization in order to invade Iraq? Perhaps if we concentrated on winning the war on terror properly, the bombings in Turkey (Istanbul, Turkey) could have prevented. But we'll never know for sure.....

[Paul]

Chrish:

You touch on a few interesting questions. I'm seriously glad that we can at least attempt to pull this thread out of the "you're a commie" mode from earlier on.

You ask interesting questions above about basically, 'why aren't we on the streets protesting al Qaeda, etc.' Well, I think you'll find that with many of us, we were there after 9-11, involved in many of the gatherings, rememberance services, church services, etc. Really the only sort of protests against the groups you describe that have ever happened. Now, it's a bit different, certainly. But the problem is that what you're talking about just have never happened. Show me a major demonstration against terrorism in the past year... (Certainly, there have been a few small ones -- a march in Casablanca in the spring is the only one I can think of off the top of my head -- but nothing major in recent history.) So if there was one, I'd go. Unfortunately, there haven't been any. Yep, people (we) probably should plan one. I'll help.

Your next point is about how we should react to terrorist groups. It's abhorrent that they do what they do. Makes me completely sick to my stomach -- which is why we shouldn't react in the same way. Please don't tell me that many many innocent Palestinians haven't been killed by Israeli soldiers in raids on whole neighborhoods in the West Bank and Gaza. We, the USA, keep the nation of Israel on the planet...including giving them millions of dollars for defence, which then goes to fund the military, who then kill innocent Palestinians. Now, does this give them the right to become human bombs and blow themselves up on the street in Jerusalem? Hell no. But what can I do about it? I can kick and scream and protest that MY country is funding another one that is repressing millions of its citizens who have done absolutely nothing wrong. A few bad apples in the bunch? Definitely. How about we use the rifle approach vs. the shotgun approach though.

So to directly answer your question, no. If a suicide bomber blows up a city bus, then no, we shouldn't go to Syria or something and blow up a bus in Damascus. If we could find the al Qaeda hideout in the mountains of Afghanistan, damn straight -- blow them to hell. I think for me it comes down to the accuracy and effectiveness of our actions. To bring it right back around -- that's why I disagree with the war in Iraq. It was neither accurate or effective, and I believe our government knew that from the get go, but "sold" the war to the American public in order to further their own agendas.

Boo ya.

[Rob]

I notice not one person can answer your question Chrish! Because they know your right. Admitting this would undermind their entire agenda.

[Jason]

You are such an idiot. I didn't know God made such stupid people.

[Tom McCoy]

It is amazing how people that have been safe and free from oppression due to a strong leader like George Bush, speak ill of him. If things were as you individuals would like, we would victims every day of our lives as the entire world would deem us weak.

You are the ones that should have been in the WTC, not the ones that were there. I am a vet and I will tell you straight out that I am ashamed that everyone of you left wing spineless "Expats" were ever in America.

I pray to God, that is right God, that you never have to live in the world whereas your local dictator(Who will kill you if you protest) has the upper hand.

I have an idea, why don't all of you go into Iraq and help the terrorist there so at least we can recognize who the real enemy is.

[Uvavo]

Um, does anyone actually protest against terrorists? It would be pretty fucking pointless wouldn't it, them being terrorists and all. it's not like it's going to hurt them at the polls or make them think twice because public opinion

Come to think of it, when was the last time any of you lot who criticise the protestors on the grounds that they don't protest terrorists enough went out and protested? I mean, if against all good sense you think it's likely to do some good maybe you should be putting your money where your mouth is.

[Charles]

Sarah Forrester, your post was right on time, I was getting ready to point out how Newsweek may have done Luke a diservice. Because now there are a lot of conservatives here and it was much better when all you Bush hater French lovers had your own little room and could sing songs of protests, love for the Dixie Chicks and agree with each other on everything. The only dissent would be if Bush or Sharon's pitchfork was bigger. But now all this real debate stuff comes along. Do what Clinton was known for in his idiotic town hall meetings-have troublemaking conservatives escorted out of the room.

[Del]

You poor fool! You really don't get it though that's ok - it takes all kinds. Thankfully folks like you are in the minority and it's being reflected more and more in all aspects of our daily life. Finally more and more people are quickly coming to their senses. GWB will prevail, get re-elected and it will give me great pleasure to watch folks like you wither in your agony! God bless our great president!

[an american]

How pathetically sad the whole lot of you are. Hope you remember how you got the right to do what ur doing. If not, hope you don't find out the HARD way. Freedom used against freedom has never worked. And those who fail to heed the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them.

Tom McCoy,

I give you unconditional respect as a vet, and I truly mean that, as in the armed forces you are called to make what is possibly the ultimate sacrifice.

While enlisted, you are unable to refuse to participate even in unjust wars. You must unconditionally obey orders, regardless of whether or not they are good or right, and can be tried and punished in a military court for disobedience.

I give you unconditional respect and am deeply grateful for that enormous sacrifice of your own freedom. Indeed, in the armed forces one is called to give up many freedoms - to express oneself freely, to behave freely, indeed sometimes even the freedom to choose to remain alive. It can be said that for the time that you are enlisted, your Commander in Chief is your dictator. There's little you can do to oppose his orders, indeed you can be punished for it, and you may die as a result of your involvement in his decisions. I don’t blame you for being optimistic under those circumstances.

Those in the armed forces make those sacrifices in order to give life and a voice to those who are more vulnerable and need defending - in the best case scenario. Perhaps in time the Iraq war will be seen as this type of endeavor. Right now we're hearing mixed messages from the Iraqi people, and the job isn't done. (In fact, for the Iraqi people, things are currently pretty bad. They might have freedom, but they'd really like to have unpolluted water so that they can drink water and stay alive. They don't yet enjoy free speech, because they're awfully thirsty. We've got work to do.)

It is possible that Iraqis will prove to be free because of what we've done in Iraq. I hope so.

However…..we are not currently "free from oppression" because of George Bush. Our freedom was born a long time ago in the principles of our constitution written by our founding fathers and has been defended - more or less - by every American president in history. (Can you think of a time since the inception of our country where we as a people "lost" our freedom and then had to "get it back"? There are a couple of times I can think of – as a society we “lost” our freedom when we imported slaves. It should also be noted that the right for women and blacks to be regarded as “human” and to have the right to vote had to be established at some point later in time.)

These sacrifices made by the armed forces, are made largely in the name of patriotism, love of country and freedom, abstract concepts which are open to interpretation. However, everyone can agree that they are beautiful ideas.

It is true that lives have been sacrificed by members of the armed forces so that we remain a country that is free and has a right to protest and be heard. It is appropriate for the protestors to take a moment to bow their heads in respectful thanks for those who have sacrificed so that we may have this amazing gift. It is important that we don’t take that freedom too lightly.

Some have sacrificed with their lives (for example in combat), and some have sacrificed by devoting their lives to a democratic process of social change. (Martin Luther King Jr. did both.) The list of those who have sacrificed in order to defend freedom has more names on it that just men and women of the armed forces.

The RIGHT to disagree defines us as a civilized society and is the reason that around the world, many people love the powerful dream of America. We can say what we believe, we can express outrage at our government’s policies and live to see another day. If we did not believe that we had the right to exercise our right of peaceful protest, we would resemble the fascist dictatorships that we all abhor. Those who protest may actually appreciate, very much, that right. This is a matter of opinion.

We're heading into an election year, and people have the right to say that they don't think George Bush should be the President of the United States. Even expats!

GOD BLESS AMERICA and GOD BLESS DEMOCRACY!

[Del]

BTW - what happened to the 1/2 million protestors that were anticipated by you folks? Funny how you maybe had 60k... weren't you guys supposed to shut down London?

You guys are 'legends in your own mind' - laughable and are clearly the minority.

How I'm reveling in your agony!

[Chrish]

To Bobo from Chrish

Tell you what Bobo when you've calmed yourself down and can refrain from the name calling, etc. I'll be more than happy to continue to discuss. Calm down, dude. I assure you it's perfectly OK for you to disagree with me as it is for me to disagree with you... Doesn't necessarily mean that either of us are correct....

Paul,

I am grateful to hear that many of you were at the rememberance services, masses, etc. and I am encouraged to hear that there would or might be the same level of protests, demonstrations against those who commit terrorist acts as there are against the US and Pres. Bush. While I'm sure there are those who will and are saying that it would be pointless to protest against terrorists or other groups as they have nobody to answer to I find that hard to accept. Why would it be pointless? Yes, many Palestinians have been killed in attacks by Israelis but, so to have many Israelis been killed by terrorist attacks. Please also note that when the terrorists commit an attack against Israel nobody seems to say a word, no protests, no condemnation. But when Israel responds to a terrorist attack, wow the prostests, the condemnations are endless. That poses the question is it OK for one side to commit acts of violence, reasons are irrelevant, and not OK for the other side to respond?
Yes the US funds Israel but, it also funds many of those other countries who harbor and or support terrorist groups. I realize there is lot of animosity against Israel and the US, by default but, since Israel is here, it isn't going anywhere shouldn't the Palestinians and other Arab nations accept that fact and start working together to make life for their people on both sides, better rather than continue the constant conflict? Or, is that just an excuse to keep things as they are with those in power still in power with more power and the rest under their thumbs? It seems to me that both sides have legitimate complaints but, surely they can resolve their differences and establish peace? Why can Israel not continue to exist and have peace with her neighbors. I whole heartedly believe that all the common folk on both sides only desire to make a living, provide for their children and family, grow old and watch their grandchildren and their great grandchildren making a better life. Don't you think that's what all of us want, desire, hope for, and pray for? And Yes, I would even go so far as even saying Pres. Bush also desires the same things. It seems to me, and this is only my opinion, that the only real way to stop this constant insanity of violence upon violence upon violence is to protest, demonstrate, condemn, and rebuke both side with the same fervor and loudness... Against the terrorist groups, against the countries that fund, harbor, and train them, and even against those who are engaged in fighting against them. Now what do you believe would happen if there were world wide protests, demonstrations, condemnations, and rebukes against both sides of this insanity? And I mean WORLD WIDE with ALL people of common decency involved in those protests? Doesn't it make you wonder? It makes me wonder... And no, I don't think that's some Utopian view....

[bobo]

Chrish,

Now you are engaging in intelligent discourse, good.

The world *is* outraged at the situation in the Middle East. You just don't know this because you live in America, land of the ignorant and underinformed, like me. (Damn, we drive big cars though! Zoom, zoom!)

The official reason that Palestinians are fighting is that Israel has continuously, and illegally, gone beyond the borders of the State of Israel that was given to them. They have displaced huge numbers of Palestinians who currently live in refugee camps. Their situation is horrendous. Indeed, they can't even immigrate because they are not permitted passports (they are not recognized as citizens of Israel), and they are not given political asylum by neighboring Arab countries who believe that Palestinians should fight for their land - land they had at some point before the State of Israel came along. Who had it "first" is a very old fight, and NO ONE IS RIGHT.

So....that's the situation leading up to these terrorist bombs. Kind of intense, no?

Okay. Some Arabs and Muslims hate the US because it gives billions to Israel, allows them to have "the bomb", and looks in the other direction while they violate countless U.N. resolutions and illegally occupy Palestinian land. Are we proud of that? So...if Israel is a terrorist to the Palestinians, and we fund Israel.....WE FUND TERRORISM! See how this works?!?!

[Kris]

Since my "These commenters make me ... ashamed" comment seems to have been misunderstood, let me clarify. Hearing differing opinions doesn't make me ashamed. Vitriolic hate-filled ad hominem attacks ("Socialist ass-wipes"? "butt-buddies"?) do. I've actually enjoyed the latter part of this discussion, especially the contributions from Chrish. Thanks to everyone striving to keep this on a mature level.

Now I can go back to giggling over the oblivious hypocrisy of Christians gleefully announcing their intention to revel in others' agony. How very Christ-like of you.

[Kris]

Addendum - With regards to Luke being a "legend in his own mind" and somehow being disappointed in the turnout, I'm a little confused here. The Newsweek article (linked way up above) said 100,000 protestors were expected. The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3223780.stm) is reporting that 100,000 protestors showed up. (And that's according to the police, who have a tendency to lowball such numbers.) Where's the disappointment? Congratulations to everybody involved!

[Del]

I love this! Of course the number was increased by our wonderful 'liberal' media. If one goes to Fox news - they report barely 60k much closer to the real number. If 100k were the real number - 5k police would have had a harder time controlling them not to mention they would have shut down London which did not happen!

The latest & greatest polls show both in England & the US - the majority back what is going on in Iraq!

As far as being Christian... personally I'm a deist. Don't assume that all those backing GWB are all Christians.

Freedom is a wonderful thing - something that must be defended and at times fought for... You that are protesting seem to forget.

Learn from history - the US saved Europe's ass because they allowed tyrants and dictators to do their will. We're all very lucky that we have GWB as our president and the majority of the world is behind us. Today's tragedy in Turkey is proof that the cowards disguised as 'holy' Islamic need to be dealt death and the world is realizing this very quickly.

[Del]

Addendum to my previous post...

We can play dueling articles - here's the one by Fox in which the Associated Press contributed...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103608,00.html

Reveling in the agony of liberals around the world!

[Dish Bench]

Wow Luke! A staggering number of comments posted to this one. I am surprised by the hostility in the pro-Bush posts. I thought that being American was all about supporting eachother's rights to hold differing views. (Didn't people flee to the US so that they could practice their controvercial religious beliefs without harassment?)

Anyway, I thought I'd post to say that I'll be in touch soon as I'm an Expat living in London who has worked with the Americans Against War for nearly a year (http://www.ukamericansagainstwar.org).

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/gallery.asp?year=02 (London's US Embassy Vigil photos)

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/gallery.asp?year=03 (scroll down for our February football match in London with the Iraqis Against War)

It made me really glad to hear that you were organising Expats Against Bush as the Americans Against War have been rather dormant recently, and it's really important that people show that they are American when they march (otherwise people don't realise how many Americans over here oppose Bush and his war).

Anyway, here's what I experienced today. I marched with a large American flag on a long pole, and carried a sign that said "Americans Oppose Bush and War". As has been my experience at other demonstrations, people love seeing the American flag, and they love meeting Americans (there's no anti-Americanism here that I've detected, only opposition to the US Governmental Foreign/Domestic policy). I met an unprecedented number of Americans (attracted by the US flag). Among them, I met a British woman whose American fiancee died in World Trade Center 1. She thanked me for coming out and said that her fiancee would have been out here marching if he hadn't been killed in 9-11. Although she had been invited to speak to George Bush during this visit, she declined the offer and came to protests.

Yesterday, at the protests outside Buckingham Palace, I met three Vietnam veterans, each of whom thanked me for speaking out against Bush. They reassured me that my views were shared by many currently serving in the Gulf (who unfortunately don't get to choose which wars they are sent to). Speaking of service people - lots of the above posts make references to anti-Bush protesters being "against our troops". I don't encounter that attitude here at all, many people here are worried about service personnel that are over there serving in a war that they view as pointless and misguided. Correspondingly, people marching over here oppose Saddam, Bin Laden, Al Queda, Sharon and any other leader using violence against civilians. At the massive February 15th anti-war demo, we were chanting "Down Down Saddam! Down, Down Bush!"

Lots of people protested Guantanamo Bay detainees not having access to normal judicial processes (protesters wore the orange boiler-suits), and apparently there will be a big demo opposite Downing Street about Guantanamo on the 13th of December.

There were so many people protesting today that the march went on forever. It took us 4 1/2 hours to cover a distance which would take an ordinary pedestrian 40 minutes to walk. There were still people pouring in after we arrived, too. And, it was dark and occasionally there was light rain (both conditions tend to cause people to leave protests). Apparently we made history. This demonstration had the largest number of protesters ever at any WEEKday demonstration. EVER! I can't believe it! Lot's of people took the afternoon off from work to be here, and many others took more than a day off to get here from places all over the UK and Ireland! Congratulations to all the Americans who marched today! Congratulations to Luke for this site! Congratulations to all the people who have taken time to articulate their dissenting views carefully and clearly on this comments post.

Cheers,
Dish Bench

(from a 31 year old male from New Hampshire (USA) who has lived in London since 2000.)

ps - I voted for Gore last election because I disagreed with Bush's policies, and I am told that I was the ONLY person to vote from overseas in my very small hometown.

[Del]

I wish all on this post would realize that we tried dealing with our current enemies from the left. Early in the nineties we were hit at the trade towers only to have Clinton deal with them from the left perspective. This allowed the world’s enemy to strengthen and we were hit on 9/11.

The majority of the world is realizing that our enemy must be dealt from the right! Thanks to Bush and Blair - this is getting done and the majority of democracies and peace loving nations agree that we must face our enemies with force.

It's sad that the protests like the one in London continue... this just feeds the 'Al Qaeda's' of the world to continue.

Today the hit in Turkey was aimed directly at England and also Muslims in Turkey. Why Turkey... because they are a democracy - something that the Al Qaeda hate. They will kill their own no matter what. Now they have pissed off Turkey and trust me - the Turks can get real mean and they will.

More & more of the civilized world is coming around - how long before you poor souls join the fight for the same freedom you freely use to bash your own governments?

Never forget - they attacked us a second time... we tried it from the left initially - now it's time for payback and get rid of the evil that is against us!

Bush will be re-elected because of folks who just like the protestors are quick to protest but offer no other option to the problems we are facing. The Democrats are losing more and more of their base because they can only criticize not offer real solutions to our challenges. The Dems of old - like John Kennedy are a dying breed. Too bad - I really don't want a one party nation but today we have no other option.

Wake up and smell the coffee (or tea if you're in England)!

[Kris]

Blair's on the right now? I don't disagree that the Labour party in general have moved towards the center, but I wonder if all the American conservatives counting him as among their own realize that he's the head of the British left. That's Labour, as in "labour unions". (Horrors! He's practically a Socialist! I wonder if Bush is his "butt-buddy"?) He's not from Margaret Thatcher's party. That'd be the Tories. Blair is Bush's lapdog, but notions of left/right have very little to do with it. Just throwin' that out there for clarification...

And apologies for the Christian crack, Del. I assumed that by "God bless our President" you were indicating you fell in that group. I understand the Jehovah of the Old Testament seemed to very much enjoy watching his enemies writhe in torment.

[Del]

No offense taken on the Christian remark though I do agree with most of the moral and values perspectives of a Christian. I just have a problem with any 'revelation' - hence a Deist (I still believe in God).

As far as my remarks to left and right - I was alluding to the American perspective on the whole. Of course Blair does agree with the right side when it comes to national security. I won't hold his 'labour' ideals against him because that doesn't affect us here in the US. He is a 'good bloke' though and I don't agree with your view of him being a lapdog.

He's just RIGHT on how to deal with the enemies of the world.

You do have to agree that you are in the minority - both in England and the US.

Not that there's anthing wrong with that... he-he-he...

[Del]

Kris... just checked out your site - very nice. Though we may have ideological differences - we both like REM (only their music - I wish they would just 'shut-up and sing' though - he-he-he...).

I'm from 'da Bronx' and definitely a minority in my town!

[Edmund]

Someone got personal and made the comment that Luke's parents must be ashamed of him. I am Luke's father (yes, I know that sounds like a line from Star Wars, but it happens to be true in this instance). I couldn't be prouder of him. Bush is the worst President of my lifetime, and I was born in the Truman administration.

The worst thing he has done is this doctrine of preemption. It's UnAmerican. America doesn't throw the first punch. There was no aparent necessity to invasde Iraq -- the UN weapons inspectors had not had a chance to complete their job -- and we know now there was no real necessity. The fact that Saddam was a cruel tyrant does not justify the invasion of a sovereign nation, unless that was the consensus of an international body. There are many cruel tyrants in the world, and many opinions on who should be invaded if we allow this principle.

But Bush laughs at principle. The only long-term hope for a world free of war and terrorism is international law, but Bush's unliateralism undermines the structures of international law.

Al Qaeda is a criminal gang who could have been dealt with through international law enforcement if Bush had not been so bent on exploiting 9/11 for Republican political advantage. By militarizing the conlict, Bush magnified Al Qaeda into an enemy state and thus allowed it to succeed and flourish. Terrorists love attention; it encourages them to do even more outrageous and dangerous acts. Bush has paid Al Quaeda the supreme compliment of putting it on the map.

Bush had been warned about Al Quaeda by the outgoing Clinton administrtion, and ignored the warnings before 9/11. That is why the White House won't cooperate with the investigation into what they knew before the WTC attacks.

The reaction to 9/11 gave them the opportunity they needed to attack Afghanistan, but more importantly, to invade Iraq, a fight which Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz had been spoiling for for 10 years, ever since Bush I listened to Colin Powell and refused to press Gulf War I to topple Saddam because to do so would have fractured his international consensus. The administration deliberately used rhetoric suggesting a link between Saddam and 9/11, knowing full well that such a link did not exist. The American people bought it somehow: at one time fully 60% believed there was a link between Saddam and the 9/11 attacks. This is what you get watching Fox news.

Luke has done a great thing today to stand up to Bush, to stand up for truth and American values. His father is very proud of him, thank you.

[Del]

Edmund - now I understand why your son, Luke is so confused.

No offense - you are definitely in the minority and you definitely have no clue.

[Luke]

No offense, Del, but you can piss right off.

My father does not chime in on these things lightly. As a past member of the national board of the ACLU, and a proud history of civil liberties advocacy, as well as tireless work to get numerous people off of death row, he has more credibility in his little toe than I've got in my whole body, and leagues more than some jerk on a message board.

[Kris]

Del - You seem very preoccupied with making sure everybody knows we're part of the "minority". Why is this so important? Even if it were true, what's the point? Do you only hold *your* beliefs because they're popular?

And to be honest, I would *not* agree that I'm part of the minority. Even if you agree that the last Presidential election was all fair and square, Gore still won the popular vote. The *majority* of voters were anti-Bush. Do you dispute this? As for my experiences living abroad for the past four years, the impression I get is overwhelmingly pro-American and anti-Bush. I watched the World Trade Center collapse in an office full of Muslims and Europeans and Antipodeans. I have *witnessed* the way Bush has squandered the good will and compassion we received on that day. It's been a sad and difficult thing to see.

Going off on a tangent here... How many of these flag-waving American Bush supporters have actually been outside the U.S.? (Let's be honest; Canada and Mexico don't really count.) I'm not trying to be condescending or anything. I love my country and I feel justified in that belief, because I've actually experienced life outside it. I have a basis for comparison. I just wonder about that sometimes.

[Alan]

"Ronald Reagan brought [the Berlin] wall down and he acheived it through strength." - Joey

I'm marking that as the funniest quote of the conference so far! Nice one Joey, have you got a leaked copy of the 'Saving Private Ryan 2' script by any chance?

[Corinne Sinclair]

To the republican JAM ROLL (check the cockney translation for that one - otherwise think about what ends up with the sound OL) who wrote:

"....it was much better when all you Bush hater French lovers had your own little room and could sing songs of protests, love for the Dixie Chicks and agree with each other on everything...."

you have a very short memory, or is it simply because you finished school at 16? have you forgotten your American history classes, or did you just sleep your way through them when your teacher tried to teach you some fundamentals of the American Independence fight against the British? Here it goes, a reminder for you named LAFAYETTE:

"In 1777, Lafayette purchased a ship, and with a crew of adventurers set sail for America to fight in the revolution against the British. Lafayette joined the ranks as a major general and was assigned to the staff of George Washington. He served with distinction, leading America forces to several victories. On a return visit to France in 1779 Lafayette persuaded the French government to send aid to the Americans. After the British surrender at Yorktown, Lafayette returned home to Paris. He had become a hero to the new nation. At home he cooperated closely with Ambassadors Benjamin Franklin, and then Thomas Jefferson in behalf of American interests."

So next time you try to fustigate the French, check your History books. The very fact that your lot baptised French Fries "Freedom Fries" only proves how uneducated, short-sighted, and empty-brained, you republican trolls are. So France would be "Freedom country" then?

The French have the grace to recognise the Americans saved them from Nazi Germany, you could return the favour by recognising that without the French's help, you'd still be under British Rule.

Goodday to you from a Freedom Fighter, who will resist Bush and people like you until the pea in your brain grows to the size of your balls (but fat chance of that from what i have read on this board).

Corinne

[nick]

LIBERAL MEDIA?
Wake up people. Does anyone really think that General Electric, Disney, Newscorp, and Time Warner are hotbeds of leftist thinking? The myth of a liberal media is a figment of the rabid rightwing mind. It's such a part of their dogma that they forget economics. the Newsmedia exist to sell advertising and increase their stock prices. Period. Those aren't exactly liberal goals.

'Joey' says...
"Maybe this will be simple enough for you to grasp. The top reason for terrorism is terrorists. The solution is to take them down." -

Love it! So, according to Joey, terrorism exists simply because there are terrorists. No thought as to 'why' there are terrorists. No thought as to what caused these people to become terrorists. They just 'are'. I just can't argue with your crystal clear logic.

"Ronald Reagan ... brought that wall down and he acheived it through strength. Not by appeasement, candle-light vigils, or poetic protest." -

although I don't recall Reagan being in Europe nevermind West Berlin at the time, and I seem to have slept through this American 'Magnum Force' full frontal assault that convinced the countries of Eastern Europe to bravely make the decision that the world would be a better place without the Iron Curtain, again I bow to your superior alienesque intelligence and wisdom to rival delphi.

[abdul]

here is something depressing. the opening paragraph of FoxNews had this to say about the protests...

The protesters, who opinion polls suggest represent a minority opinion in Great Britain...

This is so sad and so wrong. Anyone who has spent ANY time in the UK and bothers to interact with Brits realizes how opposed to this war they are. And while there was very little anti-Americanism at the march, the country is thoroughly ant-Bush. It is depressing to think that we put in all that effort just to have Fox distort reality.

The people who marched were not freaks, communists, terrorists or anti-Americans. They represented the majority opinion of the UK public. If there is any doubt about that back home, I encourage you not to take my word for it but to come and spend some time over here.

[adrian]

Dubya's definition of a terrorist:
Someone with a bomb, but not an air force.

[abdul]

oh, btw. Ronald Reagan is my hero and I dare say (on this website of all places) that I don´t think Bush Sr was a bad president.
The difference between them, other than Dubya is an ideological fanatic, is that both Reagan and Sr nourished strong alliances. they did not destroy virtually every friendship we had and replaced them by bribing Bulgaria and Eritrea. Is it any wonder why we have to pay all the price in Iraq now...

[Kaj]

Funny to see how the conservative elements here (who usually live life in the first person singular - I, ME, MINE) keep on referring to the Dixie Chicks when they wish to point out that "the anti-Bush left" is a minority.

Now, I know that many of you lot don't like to use facts (Boo! Facts!!) but rant slurs instead. So, concerning the Dixie Chicks, here's an eye-opener: Their album, released at the time when one of the singers said that she was ashamed that she's from Texas cuz Dubya was Governor there, shot to the Nr.1 spot in the Country Album Top 100 and stayed there for no less than six weeks, making it the all-time best-selling country album in years. Does that mean that a lot of ppl bought the cd to support the stance of that singer? Most likely, no. I guess ppl really love the Dixie Chicks for their music, and don't give a damn about their opinion. And that's the way it should be! Everyone's entitled to his or her opinion.
However, for all the values you guys "on the right" profess here, there is one, very important value you have all seemingly dispensed with: respect. Most of you narrow-minded ranters here obviously do not give a hoot about being decent and at least showing some respect for another person's opinion - unless that person's opinion is on par with your own.

Furthermore, to those shouting that we dumb-ass Eurotrash let dictators who started world wars rule countries on our continent: yes, true. And you know what? We have learned from that! No dictators on this continent now, no sir!

But thanks to our history, we know how to recognize things going wrong.

When one looks at the way European dictators came to power, they invariably dressed themselves in their respective national flag and called on their people to oppose the voice of dissent. Like sheep doing "baaa, yes sirrrrr, how hiiiiigh must we juuuum, baaa", they unquestioningly followed their leader, draped as he was in the flag.

Does this ring a bell?

It certainly does with us Europeans. What we see happening in the US today reminds us of a lot of veeeery baaaaaad things that happened here.

[Kaj]

Ooo! More facts!

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr031118.asp

Bush cares about the needs of people like you: 50% disagrees

Is honest and trustworthy: 40% disagrees (and that's up from 29% in Sept. 1999)

President Bush shares your values: 49% disagrees (and that's up from 31% in March of 1999)

What do you mean, "minority"? On average, nearly half the nation disagrees!

[alex]

Hmm - some of the self-professed patriots and Bush supporters posting here sound so much like right-wing caricatures I believe (hope!) they are trolls rather than the real thing.
I would love to hear from some *real* *intelligent* Bush supporters why they think that Bush's "bring 'em on" strategy against terrorism will succeed when brute force has historically failed in these circumstances (see Northern Ireland). Wrong and outrageous as terrorism might be, maybe it is time to acknowlege that it might be the *symptom* of some underlying problem? Simply viewing the world as a struggle between good vs evil surely can't be the answer...

Terrorism is abhorrent, on that we all agree. No one has in principle defended terrorists or Saddam Hussein on this board - NO ONE - although many have been unfairly accused of this. BUT, we disagree about how America should deal with terrorists in practice.

GWB switched his focus from Al Qaida to Iraq. Why did he do that? The initial claims that Saddam Hussein was an immediate threat to the U.S. have proven unfounded.

Where is the War on Terror that so many Bush-supporters believe we are fighting? How exactly is this being fought?

All we've done is decided to switch focus from Afghanistan to Iraq, and there's a lot of evidence that this wasn't strategically important in the War on Terror. The intelligence has indicated that there are no links between Saddam and Osama.

I cannot believe that the Bush supporters on this board need nothing more than George Bush's "word" to believe that attacking Iraq relates to the War on Terror. BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT, INDEED INTELLIGENCE CONTRADICTS IT AND THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS IN OUTRAGE BECAUSE OF THIS, THE WAR PROPAGANDA HAS SHIFTED FROM THIS BEING ABOUT THE "WAR ON TERROR" TO THIS BEING ABOUT "LIBERATING THE IRAQI PEOPLE", BECAUSE NO ONE CAN ARGUE WITH THAT. Of course its a good thing for people to be liberated! That will be popular!

(On the subject of George W. Bush's "word": Here's a character reference for you. GWB is cozy best friends with (criminal and) CEO of Enron, Kenneth Lay - affectionately calls him "Kenny boy" - Enron was the biggest campaign contributor to GWB's run for president in 2000. Now that George W. Bush is someone with credibility! I'd certainly be excited to go die in combat if he gave me his stinking "word" that it was for a good cause! Tell that to the thousands of Enron employees whose lives have been devastated by the criminal thieving and lies of George's "Kenny Boy", they'll really think you're intelligent! They trusted him too!)

I digress.

As I read the postings of some of the people on this board, I am struck by how many things we have in common.

Jesus, it's sad how we are divided and unable to work together for so many great, common goals:

We all want to not needlessly become the victims of aggression.

We are all against innocent civilians dying in America, Iraq, Turkey, Afghanistan, or anywhere else.

We all want freedom for the oppressed.

We all want America to be a force for good in the world.

We are all right now, for better or for worse, engaged now in discussion of what it means to be an American, what it means to have a voice, what it means to defend democracy.

It doesn't seem like it, but we want so many of the very same things - we just disagree on how to get them. (Throw in a big bucket of cultural prejudices and you've got a hot board indeed.)

I personally think that an escalation and official disar