Updated: Gore endorses Dean for the White House

It's official: Al Gore is passing the torch to Howard Dean. Sure to set all of us in Dem circles a-chattering:

The endorsement from Gore, who considered and rejected another White House run nearly a year ago, gives the insurgent Dean the backing of one of the party's most senior establishment figures and greater credibility in the face of charges that he is a product of the left-wing fringe.

As we speak, the blogosphere is going bonkers.

Comments

[Luke]

There's an interesting Metafilter thread about this here:
http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/30099

[Del]

Gore has gone nuts! He started his endorsement speech by stating that he was glad to be back in Harlem, NY and the last time he was there - he played basketball! I winced thinking that his next line would have been and after this speech I’m going out for a lunch of fried chicken and watermelon! Talk about trying too hard to pander to the black vote.

I kid you not… see for yourself at this link…

http://g.msn.com/0VD0/10/00?m=n_gore_endorsement_031209&csid=Msnbc

It cannot be any clearer that Gore is still livid over the Clintons. For starters – both Kerry and Gephardt endorsed Gore for his run for President. And Lieberman was his VP! Gore didn’t even have the courtesy to give Lieberman a heads up.

This morning Lieberman on the Today show stated…

“Al Gore is endorsing somebody who has taken positions in this campaign that are diametrically opposite to what Al himself has said he believed in over the years: strong on defense, for tax cuts and against walls of protectionism that take away jobs.”

Gore is hoping that Dean wins the candidacy. Deep down this is all that matters to him because knowing that beating Bush is a long shot with Dean – at least Dean would wrestle and win the power in the Democratic Party and stop the Hillary movement!

The writing is on the wall… It’s going to be an entertaining and exciting election year!

[bobo]

Perhaps Gore appreciates from his own experience in the 2000 election (having lost some votes to Nader), that he'd best not squander his influence by backing someone unlikely to receive the nomination. After all, he'd like to see Bush out in 2004 as much as anyone else.

[Del]

bobo... Typically a previous Pres or VP would not support anyone for the nomination. They would wait until someone won the nomination then go out and support the candidate.

It's a lot like a brotherhood when you've been where Gore has been. As I stated both Kerry and Gephardt heavily supported Gore for his run. Joe Lieberman was his VP. All over the news they are running a sound bite where Gore states Lieberman as being the best person in line for the Presidency when he was selected as his running mate.

This move has shocked everyone especially in the Democratic Party.

Gore on the most basic level is totally opposite to what Dean stands for!

It's clear that he has other motives that can be clearly seen.

[Kaj]

Hey Del,

Other motives... If Al Gore decides to put his weight behind Howard Dean now, and Dean loses the election, then Gore will be damaged beyond political recognition. Aside from that, please do not underestimate the impact Gore's announcement is having as we speak(!). I can tell you now that there are some hectic discussions going on within the 'centrist' faction of the Democratic Party, which, since the Clinton presidency, has been the dominant faction. Gore knows very well that, by endorsing Dean, he is taking a huge risk: the risk of literally shredding the Democratic Party to pieces if Dean loses in November 2004. And that is the last thing the Democrats need now - more division.

Yes, Del, you're right in the sense that Gore's endorsement is a calculated risk, but I think it to be more likely that Gore sees something we, perhaps, don't. Who knows, maybe Gore is sensing that Dean might actually have a fair chance against Bush.

Funny thing is, however, that Gore is now sort-of the father who gives his daughter away to Howard Dean at a wedding. The daughter being the Democratic Leadership Council and thus, in effect, just about the entire national leadership of the Democratic Party. That is why the other candidates have, thus far, reacted in the neutral way they have. In each and every comment, the other candidates are reacting to Dean, not to Gore. "Don't touch Gore!", seems to be the prevailing sentiment. Why? Because they know they can't. He or she who "burns" Gore now because of his endorsement, is sure to lose the nomination.

Kaj

[Kaj]

Sorry, forgot to elaborate on something.

I wrote:
"If Al Gore decides to put his weight behind Howard Dean now, and Dean loses the election, then Gore will be damaged beyond political recognition."

By stating that, I mean to say that Gore's chances of succesfully challenging Hillary Clinton (or anyone else for that matter in 2008)
or even ever succesfully running for the presidency will be severely at odds now that he has tied himself to Dean.

Just imagine what will happen if Dean gets the nomination, but loses the election. Man, the other losing nominees will shred Gore to pieces. "If you hadn't endorsed Dean, I could have been nominated and we would have smothered Bush!" is most likely to be the main argument for the upcoming Gorebashing-fest.

No. Gore has now tied his name to Dean. If Dean loses, so does Gore. All the stature and leverage Gore has now within the Democractic Party, will melt like snow before the sun.

And then another thing that just jumped to mind, more of a sidenote really: Gore's endorsement takes Dean to another level. Give the national, regional and local media three days (starting from today) and within those 72 hours, people who had never heard of that guy called Howard Dean before, will know who he is and what he looks like. That alone gives Dean a head-start and also, indicentally, takes away the one thing Joe Lieberman still had running for him: name recognition. Poor Joe.

Kaj

[Del]

Kaj – I agree with you whole heartily!

The fact that I stated that Gore lost his mind had nothing to do with the subject that for Gore – it’s the only thing to do if he wants to gain the power he is thirsting for!

That’s the beauty of the ballet we’re watching!

Today the ‘Clintonistas’ control the Democratic Party. Terry McAuliffe is still head of the Democratic Party – a Clinton butt boy! Gore has been invisible because up until now he had no way to infiltrate the party.

Your take on Gore’s gamble is a valid one. But Dean is in the lead and all he needs to do is win the nomination. Once he accomplishes that – he will get rid of Terry McAuliffe. With the nomination – he can and will get rid of him. With that move, he will owe Gore big time – Gore will them get the ultimate satisfaction of getting Hillary out of power! That is his ultimate goal!

So Dean does not have to win the election for Gore to gain power and for payback to the Clintons.

Remember back for the run of the presidency of 2000 – Dean was vying to compete with Gore for the nomination. Primarily Terry McAuliffe shut him down cold. Dean hates Terry and the power that is running the party today.

Gore’s speech today spoke of changing the party – of taking back the party! Take it back from whom? Well – you’ve guessed it – the Clinton legacy! Check my link above – it’s the speech in its entirety. In it – Gore goes as far as mentioning how Reagan way back when – spoke of a 11th Commandment – ‘though shall not speak badly of fellow Republicans even when competing for elective office’. It was amazing!

Now check out Hillary just this last weekend. It was all over the news how now she is ‘so hawkish’! Why because Dean is the complete opposite! They do NOT want Dean to win because it will take the Clintons out of power!

Why did Gore make his speech today in Harlem of all places? Look at the symbolism – he was a block away of Bill Clintons ‘OFFICIAL’ office in which he is never seen! One cannot but clearly see why it was done coupled with the tone of the speech and BINGO – it’s Clinton head hunting time!

More on Hillary’s ‘hawkish’ stance – GENERAL Clark! He is a Clinton plant because they do not want Dean to win! For those that may have doubts – check out Clark’s advisors and top campaign people – Yep you guessed it – EX-CINTONISTAS!

Kaj – it can’t get any better!

[Kaj]

Del,

Excuse me, but I think you're being a bit dillusional. (Dellusional?)

"Gore has been invisible because up until now he had no way to infiltrate the party", you wrote.
Hilarious.

Gore started the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) together with Clinton. Gore is still a member of that council. Dude: Gore, with a couple of others, *is* the Democratic Party. Don't you get it?

Gore? A grudge against Clinton? What, because he announced his endorsement only a block away from Clinton's office? Has it occurred to you yet that that did not happen because Gore has a grudge against Clinton, but that it may have another meaning? A more positive one, perhaps?

Do you really think that Al Gore - Al Gore! - would go out, all on his own, and risk the future of the Democratic Party's stature and unity, just for himself?

Let me tell you this: I know Al Gore. I was already writing articles on the man in his first year of his vice-presidency, and I have followed him ever since, especially because it was clear that he would be the one who would be the front runner in 2000.

There are pundits right now, in the media, who are saying that Gore's decision to endorse Dean is "out of character", that it is "weird" because "Gore's politics are far more centrist than Dean's politics" etc. etc. etc.

Funny.

First off, the media has, from day one, painted a picture of Dean of him being a "leftist Democrat", with "left-of-center politics". Dean, for all purposes, has been screaming his lungs out, saying "look at my record as Governor of Vermermont! Look at what I did, said, stood for and still stand for!" I did. I read, watched and listened, and I can tell you now: Dean is definitely not the leftist the media made him to be. Heck, looking at his record while Governor of Vermont, I don't see much of a difference between him and Clinton, when the latter was Governor of Arkansas.

Second, while Gore worked - together with Clinton and McAuliffe - to bring in the DLC as the dominant faction of the Democratic Party, people somehow forgot where Gore was coming from. Read up on Gore: Gore the Congressman, Gore the Senator, Gore the VP and Gore the Candidate of Campaign 2000.
This is a good read: http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/vp/vpgore.html

Why did he become more of a moderate during the 1990s? Because he knew he'd lose the South if he didn't. He pulled out in 1988 because of 1) his son's accident and 2) because he knew he wouldn't win the South. (Same reason why he didn't go for Pres in 1992.) Why did the DLC put in so much weight? Because the Democratic Party understood that it would never again be able to have a Democratic White House if the South wasn't won.

Take just this sentence from the text on the site I posted above: "Emphasizing the strength of the economy and the need to protect the social security system and expand health-care coverage"

Now, expand health-care coverage - hardly a Democratic, centrist position. In fact, Gore was blasted after Campaign 2000 because, some people said, Gore became "less moderate".

And he did. Wrapping up: read up on Gore, and please do so correctly, and you will find that Gore isn't the centrist he is always made out to be (except when necessary). No. Gore has moved a bit off-center, but trust me when I say that Dean is, once again, not the lefty no-vote-getter he's made out to be.

Kaj

[Del]

Kaj,

I respectfully disagree with your overall assessment and it seems only time will tell...

Just remember - you heard it from me!

For Gore - it's payback!

Gore wants to eat the Clintons lunch!
He will do whatever it takes to eliminate Hillary!

You can't possibly believe that Hillary wants Dean to win - do you?

If Dean doesn't win the nomination - you'll never hear from Gore again. I don't care that he belongs to the council.

Again - only time will tell...

Let's both stay tuned...

[Kaj]

Del, Del, Del...

You surprise me. I thought you had more than that in you!

"If Dean doesn't win the nomination - you'll never hear from Gore again. I don't care that he belongs to the council."
Uno: Gore will never ever do something that could endanger his position, now or in the future. Not lightly, anyway, and destroying his political credibility is something he just won't do.

Duo: "I don't care that he belongs to the council." Ah. So now you're just saying that an argument is invalid because you don't care about it.

That should make for a nice discussion! (In a mental institution for the blind & deaf, that is.)

Gore cares *very much* that he belongs to the Council. He will never do anything to compromise that position.

And even contemplating the thought that Gore would go out on such a limb because of some (illusional) personal vendetta... Tsk tsk

Like I said: read up on the man! Then come back with educated arguments and we will discuss matters again.

Kaj

[Kaj]

(In other words: read up on the cold, hard facts and add 1 and 2 up yourself. Don't let the media do that for you.)

[Del]

Kaj... please - no need to get into depth with such a scoundrel as Gore...

The writing is on the wall – if what you say about Gore were true – there would be no reason for him to come out now. Really – if you believe what you’ve wrote – why would Gore come out now? He has nothing to gain with your mindset at this point. He could wait until Dean is solidly entrenched and then come out. If he is in such a powerful position as you say – he had nothing to gain with coming out so soon…

Here – I know that you will have misgivings with this article – but even you must admit that even though Morris was barking like a dog while Clinton was getting bj’s in the oval office – he really understands the situation… ( not that there is anything wrong with bj’s or barking like a dog – he-he-he) – Morris was close enough and understood what was going on…

What do you have to say with this article…

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/12928.htm

Sorry Kaj… I can’t help but read between the lines…

Give me more buddy… please…

[bobo]

The New York Post....another Rupert Murdoch property.

[Del]

bobo... please...

There was a time when Dick Morris shared phone conversations with Clinton when both were getting a hummer...

Again - I'm the first to admit...

Nothing better than getting a 'simultaneously hummer'...

Been there - done that... ‘I do love the ladies’…

He-he-he...

[bobo]

Okay, so to summarize the "editorial" in Del's link: Al Gore has sided with Howard Dean in order to get back at Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I don't think I've ever read such a simplistic or uninteresting editorial in my life. It fits right in with: "Are J-Lo and Ben Afflect still together?"

The answer: Who cares?

[Del]

Poor bobo...

Your party is at this level...

All I'm trying to do is to enlighten you to the level of where your party is at...

Remember - this is not the Republican party...

I'm trying to help you see the light of your own party...

Again - only time will tell... enough said...

[bobo]

Thanks Del, you're a swell guy. Now I understand everything. See ya

[Kaj]

As I said before: the Democratic Party is in the same quagmire the GOP was in in 1996. Or no, wait: 1980. Keyword: divided. Reagan was too right-wing too many in 1980, and Dole was too centrist too many in 1996. Remember Ralph Reed and his Christian Coalition-clones? Oh yeah. He almost singlehandedly managed to rip apart the GOP.

Now the Democratic Party is in the same position it was in in 1992. Divided, unsure, and in fact a more a collection of factions than a united force. Until Clinton won; then the Dems were suddenly a united party again, much like the Republicans were after Reagan's victory in 1980 and W.'s 'victory' in 2000.

And Del wrote:
"He has nothing to gain with your mindset at this point. He could wait until Dean is solidly entrenched and then come out. If he is in such a powerful position as you say – he had nothing to gain with coming out so soon…"

Hey, how interesting - I read an echo of what I wrote here yesterday on another media website today! A source "close to Gore" said that Mr. Gore fears a protracted primary nomination battle, arguing that such a lengthy process would aid only the Bush campaign.

Hmmm... I hate to say "I told you so!", but hey: I told you so!

[Kaj]

Ah - I remembered where I got the 'echo' from. It's from CNN:

"Prior to Tuesday's endorsement, a source told CNN that Gore -- the Democratic Party's presidential candidate in 2000 -- thinks a protracted primary campaign would serve only to help President Bush."
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/09/elec04.prez.gore.dean.reax/index.html

[bobo]

It must be hard for Del to imagine that Al Gore simply wants Bush out of the White House, and is working towards that goal.

[kaj]

Yea, him and about 4/5th of the world's population probably |-)

[Del]

Good Day Gents,

If Al Gore’s intention was to unify the party – it’s not going to happen anytime soon. Did you catch the debate last night in NH? Not pretty…

It’s going to be interesting if in fact this will ultimately help Dean win. So much info is flying back and forth though I was surprised to hear that some of the other candidates responded that their campaigns were energized by the announcement. Seems a few Democrats don’t want Gore back in power. Remember Gore couldn’t even win Tenn. – his home state when he lost his bid for the presidency.

Seems Gore felt a bit guilty and called Lieberman after the fact.

I certainly believe that Gore does want to get Bush out of office. That’s the point – the best chance he believes that it could happen is with Dean while at the same time believing that if that doesn’t happen at the very least – Dean could gain control of the Democratic Party. Then Gore could gain more control and finally take out the Clintons.

There is plenty of chatter on both sides of why Gore did what he did. Your version and my version...

Only time will tell but you’ve got to admit there’s plenty of evidence for either side.

It does make for great entertainment – I think we can all agree on that.

[bobo]

Gents? Sorry, does this board prohibit any women from posting? And where in these posts have we all disclosed our genders?

Del?

[Del]

Oops my mistake - the previous comment I posted was for you bobo and Kaj...

Sorry I made an inadvertent reference...

I should have said - Ladies or Gents...

My apologies...

[Del]

bobo... Kaj...

A curt response from Hillary about Al...

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/144542p-127807c.html

Maybe - just maybe - my take isn't so 'dellusional'... he-he-he...

[bobo]

I don't see it as delusional as much as irrelevant.... Again, about as interesting to me as whether or not J-Lo and Bennifer are still together, i.e. not very.

[Del]

Maybe bobo to you it's irrelevant...

It isn't to Hillary Clinton - she's pissed and knows exactly what Al is up to... Her response to Al speaks volumes!

You can't deny Al saying the Dems needs to go away from the Clinton 'ideology' – it was in his speech yesterday. I listed the link above where one can hear and see it!

True blue Democrats are pissed on how this is all being handled within their party. They know the underlying reasons I listed are true. Did you hear the debate last night?

Bobo – you can continue to believe it irrelevant. Kaj can continue to believe its ‘dellusional’. That’s certainly your right.

Just keep your eyes open because this is going to continue to fester even if you believe it or not!

[bobo]

It's called a Presidential Primary. And its happening at a time when we are in a controversial war, joblessness is at an all time high, the dollar is at a dramatic low, our deficit is at an all-time high, social programs are being cut, we've cut back on civil liberties, and rich people are getting tax breaks (I'm referring specifically to the estate tax and the capital gains tax breaks).

The candidates are supposed to disagree. You dig?

[bobo]

correction: unemployment is the worst it's been in 7 years.

[Del]

Hey I'm with you - they are all supposed to come up with their version of how they would handle all the issues you mentioned. I never denied that.

I'm speaking about the underlying moves that are made and why they are done. There are different interpretations.

Instead of attention being paid to how each contender would handle the issues you mentioned – they are fighting as to why for instance Al made the move to back Dean. Last night they spent time bashing Gore!

I do admit that Ted Koppel had something to do with it. He was prodding them like cattle!

Very entertaining!

[bobo]

Change of subject:

Ted Koppel - does that guy wear a wig, or not?

[Del]

Whatever it is - I think I've seen it move on it's own...

[bobo]

Del,

I don't suppose you saw Howard Dean on Hardball when he said that he'd actually be interested in having Bill Clinton in his cabinet if he were elected President? Do you think that things have become rather less cozy since then?

[Luke]

I thought Dean deflected that question, saying it would be too presumptuous?

[bobo]

Sorry, Luke, he said he'd be interested in having him conduct the Israel-Palestine peace process as America's representative. Technically I'm not sure that gives him a position, but he was very supportive of Clinton nonetheless.....

[Del]

bobo,

I actually don't have cable... so I don't get to watch Hardball. The little time I do spend in front of a TV is Sunday morning politics, sports and PBS.

If in fact Dean would allow Clinton in his inner circle - it would be surprising.

Hillary made it a point to be all over the news last Sunday spouting her now 'hawkish' ways.

Some cynics have mentioned that this was due to two reasons. Her recent visit to Afghan & Iraq and being overshadowed by Bush's visit to Iraq. Her other reason supposedly was that she had inside info that Gore was going to back Dean. Dean is the complete opposite of a hawk.

There is so much going on behind the scenes - the positioning, the posturing that one can't help but be very cynical.

My take is if Dean wins in Iowa and NH - something 'dirty' is going to come to the surface to try and destroy Dean. I haven’t read this or heard it from anyone – I’m just so convinced that the Democratic power machine do not want Dean to gain too much power.

For clarity:

From http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000254.asp?cp1=1

DEAN: What I believe is that-look, Israel has a special relationship with the United States. It’s always had a special relationship with the United States.

MATTHEWS: Right.

DEAN: It’s the only democracy in the Middle East. But we have to, at the negotiating table, have the confidence of both sides. Only an American president can ever be the catalyst for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and the truth is that most people on both sides of the green line would very happily settle for a two-state solution if they could only guarantee the security of their borders.

Eighty percent of the Palestinians live below the poverty level now. There are Israeli mothers who have no idea if their kids are going to come back in one piece from school when they send them. These are two people who are ready for peace. Now we have got to get heavily and intensely involved in the peace process and bring the leadership together.

MATTHEWS: Was Clinton on the right track?

DEAN: Not only was Clinton on the right track. The first thing I’m going to do if I get to be president of the United States is call Bill Clinton and ask him to go to the Middle East and represent me so we can have the presence of an American president trying to bring peace to that region.

And another Clinton-appreciative statement here:

MATTHEWS: So, let’s go to-what did you think of the following presidents and you can do this in a few words if you don’t mind-Ronald Reagan.

DEAN: Great charisma. Lousy policy.

MATTHEWS: That’s it? You are a cold man. George Bush Sr., Herbert Walker Bush?

DEAN: Excellent on foreign policy. Not too great on domestic policy.

MATTHEWS: William Jefferson Clinton?

DEAN: Excellent on domestic policy and excellent on foreign policy. a few other little problems which we won’t go into.

[Del]

bobo... if that's what Dean meant to involve Bill Clinton - it's a smart move on his part.

Dean knows that he somehow must garner Clinton Democrats if he is to beat Bush in the election.

By involving Bill in the peace process - brings him in but not where it will affect his other policies.

A very shrewd move...

[bobo]

Del,

At some point on this board (sorry, I can't find where at this time), you recently said that Bush's approval ratings are above 60%. Could you please provide your source for that statistic?

Honestly, I believe you and everything, just wondered where that came from, because all I am able to find here are rates of about 50%:

http://www.pollingreport.com/

Thanks.

[Del]

bobo,

Here's the poll in detail. It's in a PDF format.

http://www.appcpenn.org/naes/2003_03_bush-surge-after-thanksgiving_pr.pdf

Bush's overall approval rating went from 56% to 61% after his Thanksgiving visit to Iraq.

[bobo]

Wow, he gets 5-6 points just for flying in and holding a prop turkey. I mean, they didn't even eat it, he only held it for the photos!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33090-2003Dec3.html

I wonder if the same people polled knew about this:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030814-110411-2389r.htm

Yeah, he supports our troops all right.

Del, how do you feel about his trying to cut the Armed Forces Pay while they were on active duty in Iraq? Just curious.

[Del]

bobo,

Like I've said from the very beginning - I support Bush because he is the closest to my beliefs in how I believe the country should be led.

I will never, ever agree with 100% of any president. To me - that's impossible! I've stated more than once for instance - I'm Pro-Choice - Bush is certainly not!

Yesterday the Supreme Court upheld a recent law Bush signed at 1:00 AM concerning political contributions. He did it in the dark of night because he knows many do not agree with this decision. I did not support this decision.

The cut of military pay – I have a problem with that decision.

The recent Medicare decision – I didn’t like it!

That does not take away from the fact that I support our President and will vote for him this upcoming election.

On the most important issues – I support our President. I believe he is an honest man that tries to do the best he can. I’m also cognizant of the fact (something Democrats can seem to phantom) that politics is a science of negotiation. That’s why we have a Judicial, Executive and Legislative Branches – remember – checks and balances!

[bobo]

Exactly - checks and balances. Except that Bush and his friends are working towards all three branches being controlled by Neocons.

[bobo]

Del,

I'm curious. You say, "On the most important issues – I support our President".

Could you just list on what issues you support the President? I really am curious.

I know about the "partial-birth" abortion ban as you've mentioned it before. Anything else you can add to my understanding of where you're coming from?

BTW bobo...

As far as Bush supporting the military...

More important than anything else - you cannot deny the response Bush gets when he is among our armed services. You can see the pride of our troops when Bush is among them. They have tremendous respect and love for Bush!

That cannot be denied!

[bobo]

That may be true, but that doesn't mean that they know anything about his policies. They are trained to work, fight, die.

I have relations in the military, and when they are out there they have very little access to any independent news at all.

Not to mention, I've seen my mother - who is from a military family - actually drool over a picture of an eagle flying with a slow motion waving flag in the background. If you ask her what her favorite color is she'll answer Red+White+Blue. (The kids she babysits think she's nuts because they realize that those are 3 different colors. They keep asking her, thinking she didn't understand the question.)

However, my mom's a smart lady. She reads the news and she doesn't endorse a President simply because he's got an eagle and a slo-mo flag behind him in the picture on the front page.

[Del]

bobo,

On the most important issues - first is national security!

He is the man for the job! I'm 100% behind him in this category! After 9/11 he did what had to be done and is sticking to it.

On the economy – my second most important issue (my pocketbook)!

Bush supports supply side economics – lower taxes. He is pro business. I support him on these issues 100%.

On equality – another very important issue for me. Bush again is way beyond any other President in this arena. He not only talks the talk – he walks the walk. Having Powell and Condi in his cabinet proves this point. He has shown the Democrats for the fakes and frauds they are by the recent denial of his two of choices for the Appellate Courts, which were minorities. Why because for the Democrats they weren’t their type of Blacks and Hispanics – despicable!

I can continue if you’d like…

[bobo]

Please do continue.

But when you say "He has shown the Democrats for the fakes and frauds they are by the recent denial of his two of choices for the Appellate Courts, which were minorities. Why because for the Democrats they weren’t their type of Blacks and Hispanics – despicable!"

Do you actually know anything about the backgrounds of these two candidates, or do you just know their races? Don't you think that republicans nominate neo-cons that are also minorities in order to elicit exactly your response?

I mean, if one of the people they've recently supported believed that pologamy should be mandatory in the U.S., wouldn't that make them justifiably "not their type"?

[Del]

bobo,

As far as your military take...

Thankfully today we have a volunteer armed service.

You're right they are trained to do a job. When one enlists - you know very well what you are signing up for.

Chain of command and following orders are a very important part of the service. I'm sure you know that when you enlist - you actually have less rights than a citizen! This is clearly stated before anyone signs up and takes the oath!

Any other way - would cause chaos!

My son was in Kuwait on 9/11 serving in the Air Force. Thankfully today he is back home being honorably discharged. He still has friends that are there and like then - still supports our President 100%.

[bobo]

I agree with everything you've said in your 4:48 post here Del. However, you didn't answer my comments.

Anyway, let's hear more about the issues on which you agree with the President. I am curious.

[Del]

bobo,

On your request for the justices I mentioned earlier you asked for my take...

The two I was specifically referencing was Justice Janice Rogers Brown and Miguel A. Estrada.

Now we can debate each one on their own records but I think that was not really the reason why they weren’t allowed to get through process.

This goes back to the comments I made concerning the mindset of current Democrats.

You see both of these nominees worked they way up the hard way. Nothing was given to them. No affirmative action – no special social programs. They didn’t let the fact that they were minorities help them in any way!

This is the type of minority that scares Democrats! They want the type of minority that fits their mold.

Please don’t give me the case of their conservative views. Who do you think a conservative president is supposed to nominate – a liberal? That’s not the way it works bobo. Be advised I can send you links that show that as a Judge – Janice Brown has leaned to the left on some of her cases.

They weren’t the type of minority Democrats want - plain and simple!

[Chrish]

Bobo, Del,

I think its also important to point out that while the Democrats are nay saying Bush's nominations because they're "conservative" the Democrats are equally guilty of nominating judges who are "liberals" some to the extreme.

Again, what is needed is balance not extreme's going one way or the other. That doesn't serve the best interests of the people.

[Del]

Chrish - you're right. When the Democrats are in power they lean to the left for justices. That's the way it's supposed to work.

The real issue is this is the judicial branch of government. You're supposed to concentrate on interpretation of the Constitution/Law.

I can list specific cases that Judge Brown leaned completely liberal! They are documented!

Both these candidates are self-made without any help because of their minority status. Democrats and especially liberals hate these types of minorities. It's not what they stand for.

Estrada and Brown are two people that should be put on a pedestal, as a testament that his is a great country and all one has to do is the right thing to succeed. They are TRUE role models for our young minorities!

[Chrish]

Del,

Absolutely correct. I'm of the minority group, Hispanic, Latino, whatever the politically correct tag is. And it seems the only acceptable members of the minority groups are those who are dependent upon the handouts from the Liberal Democrats and fall into line with their view of helpless minority people. If you're educated, hard working, self-made, stand on your own two feet by your own self they really have no need for you. I guess that doesn't fit into the "Si Senor's" dependencies...

[bobo]

Yes, I agree. Democrats are going to want "democratic" justices, and Republicans are going to want "republican" justices.

It may be interesting to both of you to note that both Condeleezza Rice and Colin Powell are in favor of affirmative action.

Anyway, I'm sorry that as self-described "minorities", you both feel that the democratic party wishes you ill will in some way. That's very sad.

I really must get some work done. For now, the best to you.

[Del]

Well, well Chrish!

Como estas?

Yo soy 'puro latino' - boriqua!

More and more Hispanics are turning Republican!

More and more Democrats are converting and many more are voting Republican.

Hence the overall transition of our government to the Republican side – sadly it’s not that people don’t want to vote Democratic – it’s just that their views are archaic. Hence even their past power base – like Hispanics are switching!

Isn’t is ironic – two minorities and we lean more to the center/right…

Makes you wonder huh…

[bobo]

Meant to footnote. I'll look for my reference on the Colin Powell info. later.

New York Times
January 18, 2003, Saturday

Bush Adviser Backs Use of Race in College Admissions

By NEIL A. LEWIS (NYT) 524 words
WASHINGTON, Jan. 17 -- Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser and the highest ranking African-American in the White House, said today that she believed universities should be able to use race as a factor in admissions policies, a view that may put her at odds with Mr. Bush.

Ms. Rice's statement came one day after the president had his lawyers file a pair of briefs with the Supreme Court arguing that the University of Michigan's admissions programs designed to increase minority enrollment in both the undergraduate and law schools were actually quota systems in disguise and were unconstitutional.

Ms. Rice, in a rare public foray into domestic issues, said today in the statement that she supported the president both in his views about the need for diversity and his stand on the Michigan cases.

''I agree with the president's position, which emphasizes the need for diversity and recognizes the continued legacy of racial prejudice and the need to fight it,'' she said.

But in the final line of her statement she added, ''I believe that while race-neutral means are preferable, it is appropriate to use race as one factor among others in achieving a diverse student body.''

Mr. Bush and his lawyers refused to say if race could ever be a factor.

The admissions program at the law school does use race as a factor, but as one of many in assessing an candidate's application. Bush administration lawyers said that the law school program operated as a quota.

Ms. Rice, who was provost of Stanford University for six years, was one of the handful of aides who participated in discussions with Mr. Bush before he decided to file the briefs with the Supreme Court on Thursday night.

Mr. Bush sided with three white students who said they were unfairly denied admission to the undergraduate and law schools in favor of less-qualified minority applicants. The president said that he favored the goal of diversity but that universities should rely on race-neutral methods to increase minority enrollment.

Administration officials said that Ms. Rice was troubled by an article in The Washington Post today quoting unnamed officials that depicted her as one of the ''prime movers'' behind Mr. Bush's decision, a report that suggested the president had the full support of an important African-American aide. One official said that she was so dismayed by the article that she discussed it with Mr. Bush and they agreed she should issue a clarifying statement.

Ms. Rice, a White House official said, remained an opponent of racial quotas, and Mr. Bush opposed the two Michigan programs after deeming them the equivalent of quotas.

Civil rights advocates gleefully seized on Ms. Rice's statement as evidence that black government officials close to Mr. Bush are uncomfortable with his stance on affirmative action.

Ralph Neas, the president of People for the American Way, said it was excellent news that Ms. Rice believed race should be used as a factor in university admissions.

[Del]

Bobo – no need to look for proof of Colin’s stance…

Yep I know that both Condi and Powell are for affirmative action. Though I don't agree with it - I do love the fact that in the Republican Party - that's ok to have differences. I still love them both! I come from the same neighborhood as Powell! Personally I never used affirmative action for anything – all I use is pure merit.

Trust me I don't feel the Democratic are trying to cause me any 'ill will'.

Today’s Democratic Party is just not in line with what I believe is needed - especially in regards to minorities. You can’t possibly fault me for not supporting a party that I have no use for… do you?

[bobo]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1104508,00.html

[Del]

BTW bobo... my nephew - my sister's son is in his second year at Duke University with a 3.9 gpa.

He's pure 'Hispanic' and didn't get in due to affirmative action. It was pure brilliance that got him in!

[bobo]

Del said: "You can’t possibly fault me for not supporting a party that I have no use for… do you?"

Well, there's what's good for society, and there's what's good for Del. Sometimes they are the same and sometimes they are different.

If Del is in fact a very wealthy person, then Bush is good for Del.

If Del's kids are grown up and out of school, he doesn't have to worry about the quality of education that today's children will receive, so Bush is good for Del.

If Del has a robust retirement portfolio, maybe he can afford to screw Social Security and Medicare, so Bush is good for Del.

And so on and so on.

Really, Del and chrish, I do so enjoy chatting with you, but I absolutely have to shut down this page and work. Sometimes it's hard to tear myself away. See ya

[bobo]

I know chirsh is interested:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3309085.stm

[bobo]

Making money from war:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3312015.stm

[Del]

bobo... please don't let Chrish or I keep you from your work... the comments will be here for a while.

Like I've stated - what I have attained was not given to me - I earned everything and I'm thankful that we live in a country where you have that opportunity. I’m also very proud!

If one minority born and raised in the Bronx from ‘poor parents’ can make it – everyone can! (Actually I am one of five children – all die hard Republicans – at least today).

With what I’ve experienced with social and entitlement programs firsthand – I know that they do more damage than good. I’ve learned that equation is what keeps Democrats in power. Playing the ‘class’ card – you hear it every single time!

More and more minorities are thankfully figuring out what is going on and the tide is changing – thankfully.

I would be the first to vote Democratic if they were more in line with not only what I need but what most of us need. We don’t need nor want handouts – that keeps us down.

Eventually the Democrats will figure this out and start putting an agenda together that will compete with the Republican plan on a more honest level.

[bobo]

(Still reading the news and posting, finding it difficult to work today:)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105186,00.html

[bobo]

This is actually a very interesting article:

"The Bush campaign's official line remains that whichever Democrat emerges victorious from the primaries will be a formidable candidate if only because the nation is so closely and passionately divided politically."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/11/politics/campaigns/11REPU.html

[Del]

Yes-interesting bobo...

The Republicans will be very happy if Dean wins the Dems nomination.

The main thrust going into this election especially with the economic upturn will be the situation in Iraq.

Dean is a dove. Bush is a hawk.

On this point - Bush will easily win.

Even with Al Gore's support - Dean will not win any Southern states. No one has ever won a presidential election without southern support - not one! Remember Gore couldn't even win his home state of Tenn. - no help for Dean.

The rest of the Democratic Party will do whatever they can to knock Dean out of the box. It's going to get very nasty within the party. The good news - by March - the potential winner will be known.

Even Dean's camp is afraid he is a loose cannon because of his loose lips. He floundered just this past Sunday on Fox News when he insinuated that Pres Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened. He stammered, he stumbled and didn't look good.

It's going to be interesting to say the least.

[Del]

bobo... just in case you would like to read about Deans inability to control his lips...

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/printrn20031211.shtml

[Chrish]

Del,

Como Estas? Feliz Navidad por a ti y su familia.
Forgive me my Spanish I wasn't raised in a spanish speaking home all English.

Bobo,

I'm with you man, it is difficult pulling oneself from this blasted site isn't it? I also thoroughly enjoy discussing these topics, the points, counterpoints, Del's masterful replies, Bobo's equally masterful replies, and then Abdul's stunning comebacks. Poetry of words. Maybe we should just go back to the shouting, yelling, and name calling? Nah, I find the current environment both extremely informative, challenging, and a learning experience. Even if it is on such critically important issues. My sincerest gratitude to ALL of you for the education I'm getting on these and other subjects.

My take is it's all Luke's fault the guy's a dealer..... :o)

No, I don't feel the Democrats have ill will towards me nor any other minority groups. Like Del, I feel it's necessary for one to be able to stand on ones own two feet. Call it machismo if you wish but, even Ghandi said that if a beggar asks you for money to buy food don't give it to him/her. Better to take that person to a restaurant and buy them a meal. That way if they refuse then they have not been truthful. Mother Theresa of Calcutta also said that it was better to teach a person how to fish rather than giving them a fish. That way then can feed themselves without being dependent upon others.

The problem, as I see it, is that the "generosity" the Democrats have been pushing has gone to the extreme and have become more handouts without any end to it. Look at what Welfare became rather than what it should have been. I don't honestly believe that Roosevelt had that vision for Welfare in mind. Generational hand outs, the parents, their children, their children's children on Welfare. That does nothing but promote hopelessness, despair, resentment, and anger. Sad to say this state of affairs has also taken over affirmative action. For me, affirmative action should guarantee that a kid of a minority race or whatever should have a fair and equal shot at entrance into their college of choice based solely on their scholastic achievements not the color of their skin. To cite an example Del, according to him his kid is in college not because of her color, race, or whatever but because she earned the privilege to be there solely on her hard work and determination and I'm sure some hard work and long hours by dad, verdad Del?

All of you have a good day, I believe it's day now isn't it? Del, old man, you have a good evening and all of you behave yourselfs.... :o)

Now I also need to back to my honey do list before the wife gets home from work or else I'm in deep doodoo, if you know what I mean... LOL

[bobo]

chrish,

i agree. we've got time to fight. best to cultivate an environment where views can be expressed, where people can get information from both sides. you totally have my respect.

[Chrish]

Bobo,

Thank you for your kind words and you and all also have my complete respect. Darn, is that a violin I hear... ha ha ha.

Yeah we can throw the jab or take the jab every now and then but, I also am enjoying this environement where views can be expressed, ideas exchanged, suggestions offered. Communication and understanding isn't that what it's about?

I have experienced here more thought provoking viewpoints and ideas from you, Abdul, Del, Jim, Sarah, Luke, and others that have given me pause for thought and, once again, ask questions. Why are we there? Is it really about Freedom, Liberty, and Liberation or is "The Oil"? I do still support our going into Iraq but, now ask is it really about the Oil that we're there or not?

I hope I have returned the same to all and in some way we are all better for it.

You're all still wrong.... :o) Just kidding.

I can only hope and pray that things will get better and the future for Our country and the world will be better. Hell, isn't that what we all really want?

Now it's my turn to say I've got to get back to work. It's morning time here and I'm supposed to be doing my job not posting on this infernal site,
Blast You Luke Robinson...... heh heh heh.....

[bobo]

This is not an opinion column or anything, just an interesting view from someone in Iraq. This guy has other articles on the Guardian if you search for his name.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1103698,00.html

[Chrish]

Bobo,

Thanks for that, started reading and you're correct it is an interesting view. Sounds really crazy.