Thoughts on Spain

As I mentioned below, I was in Barcelona this weekend, so I experienced firsthand the chain of events leading up to the Spanish people ousting Aznar and his People's Party on Sunday. I know there's a lot of speculation and a great many column-inches devoted to the theory that Al Qaeda have now managed to affect the outcome of a major country's election, and even that the Spanish people changed to the Socialists because they were afraid of further terrorist reprisals for their government's support for the Iraq war. The Socialists were well known in their public denouncements of the war, and in this respect they had the support of 97% of the Spanish populace. Aznar has not been the most popular man in Spain for quite some time, and, like Bush, questions have arisen surrounding his grasp of the facts (and the truth) regarding the war on terrorism and the invasion of Iraq.

I could not say this more clearly: The Spanish were not voting in fear, but in defiance.

When I arrived Thursday morning the attacks had just happened. The first we knew of them was as the airport bus driver announced that we would be pulling into the Placa Espanya at noon for five minutes in order to observe a minute's silence for the victims of the bombing in Madrid. As we were all freshly off a plane, nobody knew what was going on so the unspoken assumption was that it was probably another smallish ETA bombing, maybe targetting a councilman in their normal style. Only when text messages started coming in did we find out the scale of what had happened. We were all stunned, thinking this was an incredible leap in scale for ETA, who after Aznar's crackdown number at most 200 active members.

As the day unfolded in Barcelona, people stood around in little knots talking about it, and ETA was the word on the tips of every tongue. Students, having been let out for the day, organised spontaneous anti-ETA marches up the Ramblas, chanting "O no, ETA no, ETA no, ETA no...." The President of Catalunya made an official statement condemning them. Candles sprang up in the middle of Placa Catalunya. There was no other topic of conversation at dinner that night, and all of my Spanish friends were already beginning to question the government's hard line claim that ETA was behind the attacks. It would simply be too convenient for Aznar, three days before the election, to deny that the attacks were in any way connected to his support for the Iraq invasion.

By Friday the mood had changed. Normal Spanish people had stopped saying it was ETA, even in their grief admitting that even ETA was not this murderous and that it had to be Al Qaeda... But the government was still hammering the ETA line. At the official demonstration on Friday evening, the millions of Catalunyans had mostly switched to the all-purpose black ribbons and anti-terrorism slogans, and shied away from the anti-ETA signs. There were even a few "PP = Terrorisme" placards, indicating a growing feeling that their government was attempting, even in the midst of this mourning period, to exploit the situation for their own ends.

Saturday daytime was mostly calm, but there were some reports that intelligence services in Spain were anonymously calling radio stations and newspapers and claiming they were "99% sure" it was Al Qaeda. Then, around 8PM, I noticed as I was trying to phone a friend that my calls weren't going through, and that the mobile network was completely jammed. There was also an incredible cacophony outside in the Gothic Quarter, and when we went to investigate we found the Catalans had come out onto the street in protest and were banging pots, pans and cups against the metal shop shutters and scaffolding, creating a huge din, and chanting "No al PP" over and over again. Apparently this happened in the Metro and elsewhere in town... And all over Spain. A massive text-message campaign, a sort of flash mob, had been responsible for kicking it off in Madrid.

The word on the street was that Aznar had been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and that as of 5PM on the day of the bombings functionaries within the Spanish government had been told from on high to exploit every opportunity to blame ETA. Aznar himself called several newspapers (including Britain's Observer) to personally press this line.

This was too much for the Spanish to take.

When the elections came around on Sunday, the last polls had the PP beating the PSOE (Socialists) by up to 5%. By the time it was all over, the PSOE had more than reversed that figure and came through to a surprise victory. When during the concession speech the PP spokesman said something to the effect of knowing that they were leaving power "con los manos limpios" (clean hands) there were guffaws and snorts of derision.

However, the PSOE did not "win" in the traditional sense. Aznar and the PP lost, because the Spanish people had had enough of deceit and opportunism, and they wanted their country back. In the clearest street-level grassroots sense of the phrase, they voted with their feet.

There are reports now that Al Qaeda had planned to do something in Spain to swing the election. This may well have been the result of that plan. But I don’t think they could have foreseen how Aznar would behave, nor how the Spanish people would react. They were not voting to withdraw from the war on terrorism - not to be confused with the war on Iraq, which they will probably abandon - but to fight under new leadership that hopefully will do a better job of representing the people of Spain and acting on their behalf rather than begging for favors at the table of our own incompetent incumbent Bush.

I'm going to leave the discussion of what this means to our own election to you all. I've said my bit on Spain, as I needed to. There's too much misinformation and ignorance surrounding this issue, too many idiots branding Spain as cowards without any clue what's going on over there. Hopefully what actually transpired this weekend will become clearer over time.

VIDEO

I managed to get some of the events on my little digital camera's movie mode. This version is a 56K Windows Movie streaming file that shouldn't tax your connection too much.

Play video

The first minute or so is from Thursday, when it was just sinking in. Next is the mass rally and the moment of silence in the center of town on Friday night. At minute 2:36 I caught Saturday night's civil protest on tape. Finally there are the election results being televised, and the PP's concession speech.

Comments

[Tim Ireland]

*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*

Well said, that man.

[maryann]

Wow, that is an astonishing post. You should get that circulated in the bloggosphere; more people need to hear this point of view.

More than ever now I want to make arrangements (formally or informally) for the anti-war march this weekend....

Thoughts anyone?

[Liz]

Luke,

Thanks so much for your report. Very clear and very moving.

The implications of this for other elections are simply staggering. Yes, the Spanish defied their gov't but it wouldn't have happened without the events in Madrid. I am going to Rome this weekend and I am sure even Berlusconi must be taking time to think about his participation in the so-called coalition.

So many of us dreaded the war and predicted terrible results and now they have come to pass beyond Iraq. Who knows what will happen next? Probably the hasty abandonment of the Iraqi people by almost every country in the next couple of months - with the results for the average Iraqi impossible to predict. What do others think?

[MARTA TEIXEIRA]

I am not spanish, but Portuguese. You cross the border and there you are in Portugal.
I am afraid that something might happen here with
ROCK IN RIO in May and EURO 2004, as there will be
thousands of people from England, France, Germany, etc here to attend these events and because my Government has supported the USA.
I am just an ordinary person, who gets up every morning and catches a bus to go to work and does not deserve to die just because Mr Bush has decided to fight terroism!!!
Would someone please explain to him that we all have the right to die in peace???
Thank you!!!
All the best
Marta

[ebg]

Thanks for this excellent report, Luke.

I find it interesting that American neocons call a government "courageous" when it obeys the White House, and "cowardly" when it obeys its own electorate.

[Banji]

I say we all move to France, which will clearly be the safest country on the continent. At least their leader had the sense to hate Bushy too. Saddam wasn't so bad. Stupid Americans exajerated the things he did which were offen for the good of the country. Now this. what next.

[carmen]

Thanks for this message. I'm Spanish and happen to live in Barcelona. You expressed everything we felt so well! You should circulate this all through the Internet so people can see what really happened and how we felt at the time. We are no cowards, but want peace. It's about time too, what with 40 years of Franco, many years of ETA and now being Bush's lapdogs. I hope that we can renew our past excellent ties with the rest of Europe. Again, thank you very much for helping to expose the lies, the hypocrisy and our sadness in such an eloquent way!!!

[Luke]

Interesting article in today's Washington Post about how blatantly Aznar was intent on blaming ETA right from the start:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64633-2004Mar16.html

[Chrish]

First of all to you, Carmen and the Spanish people, my deepest condolences and heartfelt prayer's for the innocent men, women, children, and babies who died or were injured and for the people of Spain in that obscene attack committed against you by cowardly animals. Be angry at Bush, if you must, but also be angry at those who committed this abomination. Nothing, absolutely nothing can justify nor condone their kind of violence.

Banji, before you go flying off to France to be safe you may wish to consider this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4540546/

[zoltan]

Truly excellent. The Spanish people stand up for themselves, and the U.S. right-wingers howl 'cowards.' Really, makes you wonder why they're so upset about people standing up against being misrepresented, lied to, and used by their administration. ..

[ebg]

Indeed, it hits too close to home...throwing out a government which lied about Iraq and callously tried to spin a terrorist atrocity for political gain? Unthinkable! LOL

[Alexandra]

I finally got a chance to read your posts on Spain and indeed catch up a bit on the trans-Atlantic reaction. I heard on the World Service in small hours this morning that the Speaker of the House had gallantly accused the Spanish of caving in. Your report from the scene and the great video footage completely puts the lie to this kind of incredible stupidity. What it shows is a total lack of understanding of the Spanish achievement in the post-Franco years of creating a true democracy that is not just lip-service to an increasingly empty understanding of an ideological construct, but in the Spanish experience something real and tangible that had to be nurtured and fought for. Do any of the right-wing ideologues in the US even remember there was a civil war in Spain? And a long dictatorship that they emerged from in an extraordinary way? Yet again we're back to the unbearably simple-minded breakdown of the world that is the refuge of those who don't want to face that complex reality requires a more subtle understanding of the world beyond their front lawns. I found this piece in the Guardian earlier by Jonathan Freedland that reiterates what you were saying. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1171082,00.html

Thanks for a really thoughtful presentation of your experiences. Thinking of a Spanish friend I saw on Saturday, with her sticker of the Spanish flag in mourning, I hope the Spanish people will find it in their hearts to forgive us for the kind of callousness that is flowing from our shores, but I'm not really sure they should.

[Ramiro Gomez]

There are a lot of things we can tell about our elections here in Spain, and maybe all of them are true.
But the real thing is that in our country there was just one, ONLY one big demostration against the war in Irak. And after that almost absolute silence, including the opposition (the Socialist Party really didn't oppose the war, but the way in which Spain was involved in it (quote) "without parliamentary discussion").
The Socialist Party is still widely regarded in Spain as a band of gangs, who has been in power for 14 long years, bringing us absolute corruption and dozens of anti-terrorist assesinations by the Gals, a para-police bunch of killer guided by ministries who have been brought later to Justice, found guilty and condemned to jail.
So, first, we didn't vote the Socialists but we vote against Aznar and his party. Second spaniards disapproved the war in Irak, but in the same way other countries also have done it, just marching an evening or two, and after that silence. And finally, nor the bombings themselves, nor the lies of Aznar related to whom was the responsables for them made us change radically our votes in the elections.
What really IS HAPPENING is this:
When the bombs exploded in Madrid (my dear city, where I live with my family), and then the government began lying, we all suddenly realized that the government has a lot of fear. Fear because the terrorist maybe were capable of hitting big anywhere, anytime they want, no matter what they do to prevent it. And this means something very important: America is losing its war.
In the near future you will surely see other countries shifting their support from the US, and even the US public may change their mind and their vote. Not because any morale, no, it will be because nobody wants to be with the LOSER, and nobody wants to be the LOSER.
We, all the people, will seek for somebody else who maight be the next winner, once we have seen that, for now, the US is indeed the loser.

[JR]

Thank you.

[Chrish]

Senor Gomez,

My deepest condolences and heartfelt prayers for
those who died, were injured, and their families
in that senseless act of violence. My prayers
for you, your family, the people of Madrid and
the People of Spain in your time of sorrow and
grief. Prayrs that no more acts of violence will be visited in your fair city or country.

I am sorry that you and the Spanish people feel that We Americans are losing the War in Iraq and
are losers and hope that We Americans will prove you wrong and that there will at last be peace in
this time. That there will be no more senseless acts of violence committed by sick individuals who know no decency nor honor.

Senor Gomez, from your post regarding the Socialist Party it would appear that you, like us,
have the same problem; corrupt politicians whether they be Democrat, Republican or who call themselves Conservative, Liberal, or their new name "Progressives".

I have been to many places in my life time Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Ireland, England, France, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, India, and four years in Israel. I found that no matter where I went we all seemed to have the same common bond.
The desire to live our lives in peace, to make a decent wage for a decent day's work, to have a family and provide for them, to watch our babies grow and become fine young men or women, for our children to have an opportunity to make a better life for themselves, to have children of their own, and to watch our grand children also grow up.

And in my travels I also found that there was also the same common bond; politicians who interfered with that dream, that hope we all have.
Always it seemed it was politicians who were more concerned with filling their pockets and helping their friends to fill their pockets while the people suffered. Always it was politicians taking the hard earned money of hard working people for their own gain.

They all seem to come under many guises Democrat, Republican, Conservative, Liberal or as some of them now wish to be called "Progressives",
Socialist, on and on and on.

I have no doubt, from what I have seen in my travels, that anywhere you go in the world it will be the same story; corrupt politicians and the suffering of everyday people.

Perhaps Senor Gomez one day WE, The People of the World, will one day do away with the politicians and discover that there are no problems in life. That we can live our dreams, watch our babies grow up to become fine young men and women, to have babies of their own, and to watch our grandchildren grow up. And that the only problem we have had all these years was because of the politicians.

Until that day Senor Gomez I do pray for you, your family, your continued safety and well being
and that you have the opportunity to watch your babies grow up, to have children of their own, and that you may watch your grandchildren grow up.
For you, the people of Madrid, and the people of Spain God watch over all of you and keep you safe.

Pray for us as well Senor Gomez.

Thanks Chrish for your condolences and prayers.

I love americans for what they are and want to be, and nobody wants you to lose the war against terrorism, but while the terrorists are able to bomb almost freely, it's obvious that the other side is, so far, not winning.

Yes, all the people around the world is similar: they want to be close to the winner and far from the loser. It's the natural way to survive.
Prove the US is winning and everybody will support you beyond any morale. Meanwhile, you'll stand increasingly alone.

I've been too in a lot of troubled places, and I've seen ordinary people supporting their leaders while they feel them as winners or at least not as losers (no matter what they do: corruption, assesinations, war...), and they will let them miserably fall when they feel them as losers.

This is exactly what is happening right now all over the world and in America itself, and it's also what happened in the Vietnam war: when Americans and the rest of the world realized that war cannot be won by any of the parts, both became the losers, and that was not the end of the world but the end of that war (and it was not a bad thing).

Politicians are not a class apart from ordinary people, but a sample of them. And ordinary people sometimes want to live in peace while other times feel the need of going to war. War is tragic, but also it's the way the world change itself, for better or worse, when things stop evolving by themselves.

If Israelis and Palestinians realize that neither of them will never ever win their war, then peace will be achieved. So being the loser maybe it's not the worst thing it could happen, so don't feel so sorry to be considered as a loser. Indeed, it could save all our children.

[Ramiro Gomez]

Sorry, Chrish, the above comment was posted also by me. Regards.

[Chrish]

Senor Gomez,

I agree with you, in part, but not with all things. From my experiences the only ones who
are the losers are The People. The innocent ones, the ones who are only trying their best to live their lives and support their families. In some cases The People do put those in power who later become corrupt and turn into dictators. In
some cases The People were not given that choice it was pushed upon them by politicians seeking more power and wealth. And in some cases The People put them in power and watched as they became corrupt and gave lip service to the concerns of the People.

Yes, politicians are a class of ordinary people who get power and then become drunk with that power and the wealth and forget why they were put in office. There are those who give money (call it contributions or call it bribery it's all the same) so the politicians will do what they want even if it isn't in the best interest of The People.

I disagree with you that War is an evolution or a natural change. Looking back in history war's have always been started based on the directions of the leaders (politicians). Hitler's Nazism, Communism, Democracy, on and on. Politicians convincing the People that another country, or people are a threat to their way of life, put fear and loathing into the hearts of The People in order to hate them and justify War.

Like you I also believe that the Israeli people and the Palestininan people, on their own, would find peace. The politicians on either side or those who do not want peace, the terrorists who are mostly outsiders, continue to stir things up preventing peace from taking root. Have you noticed that whenever the Israeli's and the Palestinians are coming close to establishing peace or close in their talks there is another terrorist attack? Have you noticed that when the Iraqi people are close to coming to an agreement on their constitution, to establishing their own self rule there is another terrorist attack? And in Afghanistan when they also are close to establishing their own self rule there is another terrorist attack.

The only conclusion that one can come to is that the terrorists do not want peace. If not peace then what do the terrorists want?

With the meetings of the EU these past few days to discuss terrorism and how to stop or prevent it one can only conclude that they also have realized that nobody is safe from terrorism.
They just recently said that the terrorists who were allegedly involved in that attack in Madrid have been there since 1991. That, in all probablity, implies that if they were in Spain already then they are all over, like a cancer that has spread through the body. They are, most likely, also here in the USA ready to strike when ordered. Should we give into their demands or their threats? I say no, absolutely not! You cannot deal with terrorists to do so and they will only demand more, and more, and more....

I only hope that We, in the US, and the EU have the will to say No to their demands, to their threats...

Take care Senor Gomez, and remain safe you and your family..

Hitler made demands, countries gave in, and were soon gobbled up by his armies...

[Monte Kluemper]

As I investigate more of the hype surrounding Spànish elections, I am amazed at the amount of disinformation being spread. Sr Gomez, how can you say that there was only one big demonstration in Spain against the war? There have been almost daily protests against the war since before the war started last year. In fact, the protests began when the US invaded Afghanistan and continue to this day (there was a big protest on Saturday to mark the anniversary of the beginning of bombing in Iraq). And I'm only talking about Madrid. The same can be said for cities and towns throughout Spain. If there had only been one demonstration, no one would have believed the polls stating that over 90% of Spaniards were against the war. When in fact, no one ever made a convincing argument to the contrary.

The bombings changed the election results because the conservative "lies" to take advantage of the killings for political gain created an aire of disgust that, even if temporary, made the Socialist corruption of the 80s less of an issue. A conservative win was likely, but not guaranteed, before the bombings. Apart from how the PP alienated the electorate in obvious pre-election manipulation, the bombings themselves provided an incentive for the Spanish people to vote in order to show their support for democracy. Over 9% more of the electorate went to the polls than in the previous election. In Spain, like in the US, large turnouts tend to favor the left.

Oh, and by the way, I seriously doubt that many Spanish voted for the Socialists because they just realized that the US was losing the "War on Terrorism". Most Spanish that I know never considered it possible to win such a war by unilateral attacks on other countries.

[Stee "Beebo" Phillips]

Well done Luke on the pics and comments.

To those who Don't know me, I met Luke in Barcelona (years ago)
I also met him in Northern Ireland,
ETA,IRA,UDA, all recognisable Terror
threats. Very singular in what their
aims are. (call it border control)
Modern terror networks (Al Queda in
particular) are not bound by local
borders or local ideals. They are not
confined to a single area, colour
religeon etc. Nor are they confined
to hating a single person. ie Bush.
The US may get itself a peace loving
President, There may be leadership
changes in other countries, linked
directly or not to the war in Iraq.
My question is this, Will leadership
change make any difference to Al Queda
without fundamental changes in foreign
policy, trade laws etc...
Another question could be...
What pissed them off in the first place?
Comments??

[Chrish]

Beebo,

Frankly, I don't believe a change in a President,
foreign policy, nor trade laws will really make any difference to terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.
Considering that only recently there was a report that France, obviously not involved in Iraq, was
under threat of a terrorist attack. Why? Because they had passed a ban on head scarves worn by women of the Islamic faith.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4540546/

It stands to reason that if a group such as Al Qaeda is not only ready to threaten a country
for something, though idiotic as it may be and as insignificant as the banning of scarves, then they
perfectly willing to carry out that threat.

What would make anybody assume that they can be dealt with in a peaceful way?

Your question, "what pissed them off in the first place?", I belive, has a complex answer or multiple answers. From what I have read about them and their supposed reasonings it covers the Palestininan issue, the Islamic fundamentalists view of the Western World note, that includes Europe, UBL's anger with "the Infidel's"
presence in Saudi Arabia, all the way back to the Crusades. If you listen closely to some of the statements that UBL has made he has made many references to the Crusades. Add to that fundamentalist cleric's stirring up more hatred towards the West on religious grounds. Some of that anger and resentment is not only fostered by the clerics but, is also encouraged by their own governments. Why? Better to have the anger and frustration directed towards other's, i.e. the US or the West, rather than themselves due to their own failures in managing the affairs of their people. If not for those various governments encouraging that hatred then it's highly likely the people would turn on their government. In other words they've been pointing the finger at the US or the West as the cause of all their suffering, pain, and poverty. Add the fundamentalist teachings of a religion to the equation, give it a name, "Jihad" (Holy War) and under the blessing's of God and you have people ready to kill as many innocent people even if it means giving their own life in the process. What you have then is a War founded and based on a religion. The Crusades, for example, was a religious war just as the one that has been ongoing with terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.

Like you said the other's, ETA, IRA, UDA, are sinular in their focus.

I guess, for that matter, you could also say Al Qaeda and the other's are also singular in their focus.

[Ramiro Gomez]

Dear Chrish,

You are analysing the role of the politicians, often pushing the people towards hell just to serve their own ambitions and interests, and I’m analysing the role of the people, often supporting these same villains.

Yes, Hitler was the worst guy ever, but he was a leader widely supported by his own people in whatever he does and in whatever countries he invades. Don’t you think both views are right, and that both, individuals and entire communities, sometimes become together unstoppable? (Think of Israelis and Palestinians with regards to their leaders).

Yes, you’re right, innocent people are the losers, more often than their leaders. But they are the losers only when the whole country lose. They are ALSO the winners when their country wins. If you invade a country and win a war, then it’s sure the people of the winning country will win something, while the other people, the losing one, will lose much more. You don’t become powerful innocently by yourself, you must defeat others to become each time more powerful.

Regarding the demands and threats of the terrorists, its obvious that they are an emerging power challenging the US supremacy and in general terms the western way of life, and that you’re legitimated to fight them by almost all means. But what if you don’t succeed and they confirm their increasing power while the US becomes more isolated and divided (because nobody wants to be with the loser nor to be the loser itself)? You can seal your borders and you can invade countries, but it doesn’t seem to affect too much the ghost power of the terrorists.

If this happens then maybe the US (TOGETHER with the rest or the world) will be forced to find another way to survive, not confronting them directly, but sitting down and waiting, letting them die by themselves. Remember what happened to the USSR. It’s Plan B. Islamic terrorists are fanatics who don’t care to blow themselves cause they’re going directly to their heaven. You cannot fight them directly!

Yes, you’re right. Almost all people EVERYWHERE just want to live their lives in peace, to make a decent wage, to have a family and provide for them. So prove that you believe in what you’re saying, and give them a chance. Sure there are NOT a lot of people prepared to blow themselves and blow others with them, but if you fight them the way you are doing right now they will become more in number.

Power is like other things, it has its own cycle: it born, grows, becomes older and then dies. If this terrorism has emerged so quickly, then its cycle is short and it will disappear quickly, but by fighting them directly the US is doing right the opposite: it is extending their cycle indefinitely (look again to what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians and don’t repeat the same mistakes).

The US must find the weaknesses of the terrorists and then become itself more strong in these fields. The USSR had a weak economy and the US let them die precisely becoming economically more powerful: It was the economy not the nuclear power that defeated the USSR. You won that war and you’ll win again this new war if you are
smart enough to find the smart leaders you deserve.

[Chrish]

Sr. Gomez,

You're correct, I am analyzing the politicians and yes, I am fully aware of the role of the people and their support of the villans who "push
them towards hell." thank you Sr. Gomez, I like that phrase, "push them towards hell", very aptly stated.. What is sad is that the politicians use our fears, our worries, our concerns, our prejudicism's or bigotry's, our state in life to "push us towards hell". Often times that push is instigated by the very politicians themselves or those who stand the most to gain. In either case both the politicians and the instigators gain
but, the people, the people always end up suffering the most and lose the most.

Consider the words of Hermann Goering spoken to his prison physciatrist during the Trials of Nuremburg. Considering the War in Iraq, the terrorists and their murderous attacks on innocent people, and the leaders on both sides who have pushed us to this Hell his words speak loudly:

"Here is the complete quote, with a comment by Gilbert that occurred midway through it:

"Nazi leader Hermann Goering, interviewed by Gustave Gilbert during the Easter recess of the Nuremberg trials, 1946 April 18, quoted in
Gilbert's book 'Nuremberg Diary.'

Goering: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece.

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is
understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship, {or an Islamic Fundamentalist Cleric, My words}

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars.

Goering: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

In essence Sr. Gomez whether a President, a Prime Minister, an Ayatollah, a Sheik, or a Grand Cleric
"the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders.". Use their fears, their anger, their resentments, their poverty, or any other multitude of misery that the people are suffering and the people can be pushed towards Hell.

It seems a fairly safe assumption then that get rid of the politicians and leaders and We just might do OK.... :o) Or, at the very least the People must be more demanding of their leaders, ours included, to do what is in the best interest of the people not the best interests of the politicians nor their benefactors, friends, contributors (bribers), nor business associates.
To make them fully aware that the "For Sale" sign is no longer in front of our White House, Our Congress, Your Parliament Building, nor any other government officials office here or over there.

In short Sr. Gomez, taking back our Governments from the corrupt politicians and the corrupt Special Interest Groups that own them. Taking back our religions or faiths from the corrupt priests, Ayatollah's, fundamentalist cleric's, and
perverters of our faiths.

[Ramiro Gomez]

Dear Chrish,

Behind the politicians there are always some Special Interest Groups.
And behind these Special Interest Groups there is always somebody much more powerful.
And finally behind him there is another one even more powerful.
And that’s all.

There is just one difference between the handful of maybe the really most powerful men and women and us, the ordinary people, only 1 difference.

¿May you guess which one?
A tip: think about “pushing people towards hell”, literally.
Maybe the answer is too horrific to be thought or told.

Thanks Cherish for all your comments.
It is interesting to find somebody who loves people so much.

[Chrish]

May I guess which one? Yes, I know of whom you speak and he has many different names and many disguises but always wants the same thing... To push people towards hell.

The sad thing is that there are many now who deny his existance which makes him stronger and those same people deny or reject the existance of God.
Here in the USA, they push to have his name removed from our Pledge of Allegiance, removed from our schools, removed from our government buildings using the "Separation of Church and State" as their excuse or justification. Then wonder why our society is having so many problems.
But say to them that because you have pushed God out of our lives and they mock, ridicule, and condemn you for having such thoughts.

Then there are those who are supposed to be walking in the light of God call them priests, or
rabi's, or ayatollah's, or cleric's, or monk's but, only seem to walk in darkness preach and practice hatred, malevolence, and violence all in the name of God....

Thank you as well Sr. Gomez, it has also been enjoyable for me to talk with you. You also seem to be one who has love for people and so we all should. We are, after all, the same. There is no difference amongst us. We all have hopes, dreams, aspirations, fears, worries, on and on and on. Our cultures may differ but, isn't that what makes each and every one of us unique and special? I think of Spain and I see the incredibly rich and varied history she has. So many centuries of life that has walked your lands.
Look at any other country in our world and the story is the same... The incredibly rich and varied history each country has to tell and the people who live and have lived there. The generations that have come and gone a father's and mother's to father's and mother's to father's and mother's. Each generation passing their wisdom and history onto the next and to the next.
How can one not love people and each persons individual history... You, yourself Sr. Gomez have a history as your parent's and your parents parents and your parents parents parents going back how many centuries? Your children are now a part of that history as their children will also become a part of that history; your history.

Isn't that something to wonder and marvel at? How can one not love people just for that reason alone.

Here in the USA we do not yet have that history for we are still a young country in comparison to you in Europe and Asia. I only hope that We too, as a country, may grow old have the many generations behind us as you in Europe and in Asia have. Hopefully we will also have grown in wisdom and common sense..

Best to you and your family. Just think when you look into they eyes of your babies you see the history of your family, of your people.. What a wonder....