Prison abuses story mushrooms

It looks like the proverbial poo is hitting the fan about these torture abuse allegations:

• Bush calls abuses abhorrent, promises to get really angry about it all on an Arab TV channel funded by America
  
• MoveOn asks you to pressure Bush to do more
  
• MSNBC posts the full text of the Taguba Report on the abuses
  
• Iraqis angrily demanding release of all prisoners from Abu Ghraib
  
• Tacitus [via Washington Monthly] on possible solution to all this:

  The third and final act that is within the Army's power is to disband the 372nd Military Police Company. Dissolve it entirely; never resurrect the unit designation; strip it of its citations; bury the guidon in disgrace in front of all its soldiers and an Iraqi delegation in Iraq; scatter its alumni to the four corners of the Army. Cruel? Yes. Harsh? You bet. Salutary? Absolutely. The Army is a closed society that treasures its hierarchy and its heritage: institutional oblivion is therefore among its most dreaded fates. This ought to be the fate of the 372nd, with all the public humiliation and display that can be mustered. To the soldiers, it will say that there will be little mercy and no mitigation for crimes in America's service; to Iraqis, it will say that we have excised our cancer and are moving decisively forward. To Americans, it will say that we have the courage to be the best, not by comparison, but as an end in itself.

  
  

I fear the situation in Iraq has gone into the "irretrievable" stage and that our man Bush is unequal to the task of actually sorting out the problems there. This abuse scandal needs dealing with and now, as we have pretty much shot ourselves in the foot on keeping the moral high ground. This week could be the week that future historians estimate we finally squandered the very last of the goodwill extended to us post-9/11 and finally dipped into the red on the international karma stakes among every country on the planet.

Nice work, George.

Comments

[Jim]

Of course this is aweful. Of course the guards involved and those who let it happen should be punished severely. Is this even an issue? But where is the outrage when 4 Americans are burned and mutilated? Do 17 or 20 or even 50 bad soldiers really represent 150,000? Unfortunately many want it to seem that way. And I am in no way excusing their actions.

[Chrish]

Oh joy, the Doom & Gloom Club are spreading
their tentacles of fear, doom, and gloom
once again.....

The era of Double Standards continues its reign. Long live the priests, priestesses, and followers of the Doctrine of Double Standards.

Ummm, so where were they when 4 men were burned alive, mutilated, and hung on bridges? Where were
they when Hussein was torturing his people in the very same prisons those idiot guards acted so disgracefully? Where were they when two terrorists killed an 8 month pregnant mother and
her 4 young daughers? Where were they when Odai was raping young Iraqi women whenever he chose?
Where were they when Hussein was gassing his people? Where were they when a news journalist was getting his throat sliced and his head cut off?

They were Silent......

[Uday Hussein]

Hey, at least when I did it I had a touch of class...

[Luke]

Guys, this old dog don't hunt.

This is the same argument people made when we marched against Bush in London last November: "Why didn't you march against Bin Laden when he killed 3000 people?" The answer is that I would have gladly joined any march against terrorism - in fact I did join a march against terrorism this March in Barcelona just after the Madrid attacks. Even though I did join that march however, in general I still feel that marching against terrorism is not really going to solve things - by default most people would say they are against terrorism, and marching against it is not likely to sway the mind of a fundamentalist idealogue terrorist one way or the other.

This is the same case here. By default most everyone was appalled at what happened to those guys in Fallujah, the same as we were appalled by bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu. There is no excuse for what those animals did and no effort should be spared in punishing those responsible. But protesting or crying out about it isn't likely to do much to sway the minds of those responsible.

The case of the prison abuse is entirely different and it is our duty to protest it in the most vocal way possible. Why? Because we don't do that sort of thing! American troops should not EVER lose the moral high ground and debase themselves by abusing prisoners. That they did so will damage our reputation in the Arab world irrevocably. Therefore, should we be quiet just because it's our own side? Absolutely not. We need to shout about this in order to put pressure on people that WILL listen - namely our elected leadership. You can bet that will have more of an effect on how things pan out in Iraq than protesting against thugs as was suggested above.

What is needed now is A) an unconditional apology from Bush, B) a harsh disciplinary proceeding against the units involved, and C) Donald Rumsfeld's resignation. And only public pressure at home and from abroad will bring that about.

I appreciate what you both are trying to say, but it just doesn't hold water.

[Jim]

Luke,

I agree with you on point B. Point C - I don't know what to think of Rumsfeld. Point A - You know this would only be used as political fodder. The Iraqi people want and deserve justice for this. The President said everything except the words "I'm sorry"- which people only want as a sound bite for the Dem campaign. He didnt' commit these acts. Those that did will and should be severly punished.

If you don't protest, aren't you condoning the actions of those involved. (those that burn and mutilate other humans, regardless of nationality)

[Chrish]

Luke,

I wholeheartedly agree with you on Point B and
I have no doubt whatsoever those guards and their
officer's will be tried and will be punished as
they should be in the harshest of terms.

The ongoing investigation by the Pentagon needs to
run it's course and those involved up the chain
of command need to be exposed and punished. For
those who are trying to politicize this need to back off and let the investigation run its course.

On your point A, I agree with Jim as that would only be politicized and used for fodder. I would
even go so far as saying his apology would, most
likely, be taken out of context.

On your Point C, Rumsfeld hasn't been shown to be involved in these disgusting acts nor of having knowledge of it, as yet. So I'll hold on that one.

What is angering me over the actions of those wretched bastards of the 372nd and their commanding officer are the excuses and the not
taking responsibility. "I wasn't aware of what was going on" says their commanding officer a
Brigadier General. That is her responsibility to know what is going on in her command and those she commands. That statement by her in and of itself should lead to her immediate dismissal and court martial as far as I'm concerned.

Lawyers representing two of the accused soldiers, and some soldiers’ relatives, have said the pictures were ordered up by military intelligence officials who were trying to humiliate the detainees and coerce other prisoners into cooperating.

These kinds of statements from their family memebers and their lawyers, while understandable,
are excuses:
“It is clear that the intelligence community dictated that these photographs be taken,” said Guy L. Womack, a Houston lawyer representing Spec. Charles A. Graner Jr., 35, one of the soldiers charged.

The father of another soldier facing charges, Spec. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., also said his son was following orders. “He was asked to take pictures, and he did what he was told,” Daniel Sivits said in a telephone interview last week.

Those are the same lame ass excuses the Nazi guards in the death camps tried to used; "We were
following orders." NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I disagree with your statement that not protesting the actions of the terrorists won't
do any good. It's not just protesting their acts
it's also about protesting against those countries
who are known to sponser them, provide them safe harbor, or financial support. Tell me, are there
an embassy's or other official representation from Iran, Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia,
or representation of the Palestinians in London, Spain, Italy? If so, then what do you think the response from any of them if a terrorist attack occurred and those embassy's or other official representation suddenly found themselves surrounded by banner waving crowds condemning them for their involvement, directly or indirectly, with terrorist attacks? Perhaps
nothing the first time, perhaps nothing the second time but, just maybe the third time they
would begin to get nervous. This just might be especially true if the crowds kept getting larger, more vocal, and more World Wide.
Perhaps, just perhaps those countries would begin
dropping their support, erradicating those terrorist groups from their midst under the
pressure of World Wide opinion?

Having protests here would not be as effective as they would from European and Asian countries.
Who knows, if it were to work and those terrorist
sponsoring countries were to change their ways an avenue for real discussions, real talks, real solutions just might be discovered that would eliminate the need for all of this mindless violence.

Isn't that ultimately the goal, the dream we all share in? Stopping the mindless violence and working towards real peace.

You, Luke and other's, are in a unique position and location. You are in contact with other groups, other people in England, Spain, and other countries. Surely you can see the potential, the possibility of what may result if something of this magnitude was not only to happen but were
to be successful? Imagine.

[Jim]

It seems Luke got "A" afterall. Hopefully "B" too. But probably not "C"

[Chrish]

Well Jim, if it turns out that Rumsfeld knew
was aware, or had received reports of that disgusting activity then he should not only be fired but also brought up on charges and tried. He is, after all, Secretary of Defense.

But I will wait and see what comes out of these
investigations.

[Jim]

I'm not sure I agree with you Chrish. Yes, of course the guards and their commmanders should be severely disciplined. The important thing is was that changes be made and discipline and punishment be served. Was it really important to publish the pictures of the idiotic guards. What's more important? Taking care of the problem or making it public? I'm not saying it should be covered up. I'm just saying publishing the pictures is an embarrassment to the prisoners, to the good service men and women and leads to more hatred of the U.S. - all because of a few bad apples. If Bush and Rumsfeld knew what happened and didn't act, that would be aweful. If they knew what happened and just didn't send out a press release, is that so bad?
As far as when Rumsfeld told Bush what, I don't know if we really know the truth about that.

[Chrish]

I can agree with you Jim however, the question is
if those pictures had not been published would anything have really been done or would the report been looked at and then filed away? I'm not saying it would have been covered up just possibly nothing done about it.

While it has shamed all of us, has put all of us in a bad light is true. It has also forced the hand of those who have the authority to put a stop to that kind of treatment. Now those who have the power are forced to deal with the situation head on and make it right....

What is important now, and here I do agree with Luke, is that We, The People, must in all good conscience continue to put pressure on the members of the Bush Administration including Bush, and those politicians on both sides to ensure that justice is served. For those self-serving politicians who would try and politicize this for their own polticial gain or agenda they should sit down and shut the hell up.

The conduct of those guards and officers is outside the political arena. This is about acting and conducting oneself like a professional and a human being and treating those in our charge or custody in a profressional manner and like human beings as well.

I still believe there is a double standard out there but, that doesn't excuse our troops who
engage in those kinds of activity from suffering the consequences of their actions.

[heather]

There is some evidence that what was going on, was systemic, "business as usual".

This is only one of the many articles I've read addressing evidence of this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1210574,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1211374,00.html

An interesting commentary:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1210502,00.html

[Curious]

Jim, Chrish,

I'm curious: do either of you attend protests? Specifically, how many protests have you attended in your lifetime, and what were they in protest of?

I'm just curious about the practicalities presented by the ideal that if one protests the actions of one's own government, one should attend protests at the actions of the enemies of one's own government equally.

How do you manage to make sure that you spend equal time at both of these? And, can you give us some tips?

[j.j. jones]

Luke, you say it all happened this week? how about the months before 9/11 when Bush was on a mission to ignore the rest of the world for 8 long months? how about the months before we invaded Iraq when Bush made an effort to abuse, frighten, and intimdate everyone who disagreed with us? That is when we wasted international goodwill. This? This is just what I had been saying would happen all along.

[Luke]

J.J.,

I should have said, this is the week that the coup de grace was applied to the neck of goodwill towards us. The proverbial straw breaking the camel's back of international solidarity with us. Ad nauseum.

For anyone who actually wants to know what they're talking about, the Taguba Report:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

The soldiers were ordered to do what they were doing.....Military Intelligence (MI) interrogators and Other US Government Agency’s (OGA) interrogators actively requested that MP guards set "physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses".

[heather]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_05_02.php#002927

Enjoy:

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907

[Chrish]

Interesting link showing that there are those who are trying to do good but, does anyone ever talk about it, report on it? No, as usual it's all about the negativity, the bad. the ugly... BTW, This link is on the same page as the talking points memo link posted by Heather:
http://www.spiritofamerica.net/req_7/request.html

The Daily Telegraph article made me realize how
Women's Lib has definitely come a long way, they are now on a par with men. They have definitely achieved equality with men:
"POINTING crudely at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi, the petite brunette with a cigarette hanging from her lips epitomised America's shame over revelations"

"The commander of the prison service in Iraq, Brigadier-General Janis Karpinski, 50, has been suspended from duty and is expected to be charged."

"One colleague said: "Janis sees herself as making way for women to get to the top in the US Army."

Is she really representative of the values women
cherish, seek, and have strived for? Note that the Brigadier-General has been suspended from duty and is expected to be charged.

I read the Taguba Report and also noted "The soldiers were ordered to do what they were
doing.....". The Nazi guards at the death camps also used the excuse "We were just following orders.".

Article 90(2,a,i) of the UCMJ addresses the
subject of what constitutes a lawful "order":
"Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime."
"patently illegal order" or "directs the commission of a crime". They have no excuses.

And Article 93 of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) directly addresses the subject of Cruely and Maltreatment:
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl93.htm
They have no excuse how much clearer can it get? Those guards, officer's, and however high up this goes are guilty and they will be punished. They had better damn well be.

There is also the violation of the Geneva Convention to consider which addresses the treatment of POW's.
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/genevacon/blart-12.htm

Now I'm sure there are those who would try to use the excuse that they weren't POW's and therefore do not fall under those guidelines and perhaps legally they might be correct but, in all good conscience I feel that their conduct violated the Spirit of the law and should be tried on that basis, every last one involved. For those higher
up's who had knowledge of but did nothing should
also be held accountable. If that includes Rumsfeld then so be it, he is not above the law.

For those who are already screaming for his resignation or attempting to politicize this for their own self-serving agenda's or political gain
keep in mind that even Rumsfeld falls under "Innocent until proven guilty" credo that
they're always ranting about.

Let the still ongoing investigations be completed before we state passing judgement or does that
also fall under the shadow of Double Standards?

[j.j.]

Crish,
well researched and well written arguments. I agree with almost all of it, except on the very last part: innocent until proven guilty seems to have been forgotten by the Bush administration. Just look at the sheer number of prisoners we have yet to even allow to see a lawyer or know what they are being charged with. This is against all norms and rules of democracies. These are values which we, America, have championed for decades. Unfortunately, Bush has thrown them out under the guise of security for the nation. The same was true during WWII when thousands of Americans of japanese origin were detained for no reason other than their ancestry. The worst part was that the Supreme Court ruled it legal. I don't know anyone alive today who would agree with that ruling, yet it happened then and it is happening today. We cannot allow ourselves to abandon our own principles. If so, then what are we fighting for to begin with? I say we are better than terrorists and oppressive regimes, let's prove it.

an excerpt from an article by Richard Reeves:

"...Since last October, six months ago, the International Red Cross, visiting the prisons every six weeks, has been reporting to the Coalition Provisional Authority all of the practices we now know about. It was, once more, a lone whistle-blower, an anguished American soldier, and the press, who brought the pictures to Americans.
There is every reason to believe that the military and the administration would have continued to cover up and deny the truth if there were no pictures. We should examine our consciences about that. We can stop wondering why much of the world now hates us and, in polls, say we are the most dangerous people on Earth. Secretary Rumsfeld, the man who said that the Geneva Conventions on the rights of wartime prisoners are out-of-date, is the poster boy of those Americans who seem to have nothing but contempt for foreigners who dress funny and worship a different god than most of us. He should be fired, not because he has been wrong about so many things from the beginning of the unnecessary war and occupation of Iraq, but because he is the symbol of our contempt for the rest of humanity.
Or perhaps it is President Bush who is the symbol of that contempt for the opinions of mankind. He is going to have to try to explain one more time what we are doing in Iraq -- and this time he has to do more than just say he is absolutely sure he is right, do more than say God is on our side, do more than talk about his own resolve. In fact, he was wrong from the beginning and now has to tell us about the end of this...."

Anyone who, at this point, still believes in he notion of us as virtuous liberators lives in a world of illusions and denies the obvious truth. Miraculously, however, people still believe that Bush acted out of a desire to liberate Iraq and promote freedom for the arab masses. In fact, Bush and General Myers were given report of prison abuses 2 months ago and did nothing about it. Both claim not to have read the report. Anyone who watched Rumsfeld downplay the significance of the report (and its release date) before the Senate committee must have squirmed in their seats. He claimed to be investigating the matter all along. Obviously, a high-priority report for all them. This has cover-up written all over it.

However, in my infinite wisdom, I am willing to be fair and give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they were too busy discarding the vast stockpiles of WMD we have found. (Wait, haven't found them yet.) Or maybe we were busy arresting al-Qaida terrorists. (Oops, not one arrested in Iraq yet.) Perhaps they were winning hearts and minds of the arab world. (Nope, that certainly hasn't happened in the past year.) Aaah schucks! And people wonder why I hate Bush...

[j.j.]

oops, last post by me, J.J. in Iceland.

[j.j.]

correction:
indications are that our superheros have known about this for much longer than prevously suspected. They must be investigating at the same pace as those who are trying to uncover the whole Joe Wilson affair.

[j.j.]

what do we do now? a good read...

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040524&s=forum

[Chrish]

J.J., here's a better read.

For those of us, especially those in the "news" media, who are more concerned with the negativity
in Iraq, the abuse scandals, and the horror's of war.

There are those soldiers we never seem to hear about; God Bless every one of them.

http://www.operationiraqichildren.org/mission.html

Kind of makes that saying "By their works you shall know them." come to life?

[j.j.]

nice indeed. I find it sad that a country as wealthy as Iraq should have been was so busy wasting its resources under Saddam. There was no need for such squalor.
Yet, as anyone who has ever been to a 3rd World country knows, this is a very common sight. Nothing unusual about this, sad to say. So far, we will have spent about $150-200 billion in Iraq through the end of 2005 - but only about 15% of it is on reconstruction. Crish, is it not fair to ask: could that money not have been spent more efficiently around the world without resorting to war?