Sack Bush

So Bush finally came out and said he was sorry. Fair play. Mind you, he told it to the King of Jordan, cos, you know, he's an Arab too. Still, it's the first time we've heard the President say "I'm sorry" in a looooong time. But is it too little, too late?

Bloggerheads seem to think so. They have suggested a little bit of civil disobedience with their just-launched Sack Bush experiment. Keep your eyes peeled for bagged statuary worldwide!

Comments

[jj]

honestly now, this is almost childish. are we that desparate? is Bush so invincible that we must resort to sacks to get rid of him? will it work? doubtful, events in Iraq are making an ass of him everyday, why must we follow suit?

[Manic]

jj, you're absolutely right.

As many have learned in the last few hours, Bush is a great humanitarian. Him hugging a little girl proves it:
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/05/06/loc_moment06.html

We should place our trust in the media:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200405070003

And in the Bush administration, who I am sure are in no way responsible and keen to tackle this problem head on.

[j.j.]

a touching gesture by Bush indeed. it goes to show that he does have a heart. but he also seems very selective about whom he embraces. I want to see him embrace the families of the 10-15 thousand Iraqis he has killed during 'liberation.'

keeping warm in Iceland

[Hal]

I like the quotes around liberation. Can anyone name a country or region in the world that has America has gone to war against in the last century, prevailed (hence, not vietnam), and which is not now a stable democracy with basic freedoms? I can name a few that are! S. Korea, Japan, France, Germany, Kuwait. I'm sure all of those countries are glad the US stepped up.

[J.J.]

Hal,

you are totally right in the countries you listed. I would include Taiwan as well, which owes it's freedom to its alliance with us. There are many more. In fact, most of western Europe. The difference is that in all of those cases, our reasons were genuinely to protect and promote democracy (Kuwait excepted.)
In Iraq, conversely, surely you must realize by now that the idea of liberation was a farce sold to the public to justify this war. even so, in the run-up to war, it mostly took back stage to the more threatening argument of WMDs targeting us. Only when they proved not to exist, did 'liberation' become the main reason for invasion. When was the last time you heard Bush or Blair speak of WMDs? Exactly. It is much more likely that Bush wants US strategic influence over the world's most important econimic region before China's economy overtakes ours in the next 10-15 years. Just read the various documents crafted by the American Enterprise Institute, it's all in there. Liberation is just the latest excuse.
To answer your question, I would refer you to the post by Eric under the 'Run against Bush' header. I think it is the ninth or tenth comment, posted on April 24, 2004 05:40 PM.
To be sure, I can think of a number of other examples as well.

[Joe]

Hal,

I wonder if the people of Chile and Nicaragua are as pleased that US stepped up to support Pinochet and the Contras? Ironically in the latter case, with the new US ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte as a key player.

[j.j.]

an article by Richard Overy, professor of modern history at Kings College, UK. He argues why the soldiers did what they did and I think he touches upon a valid point.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1213035,00.html

Bush and Rumsfeld repeatedly refer to Iraqi insurgents as 'terrorists, baathist dead-enders, foreigners' and so on. You've heard them. Otherwise, people are freedom loving Iraqis. So if we arrest some one, surely it follows that it must be a terrorist because we would not arrest a freedom loving Iraqi. So I guess it's ok to torture and humiliate prisoners because they are terrorists bent to harm us.
But this goes further than just Bush. I was watching Tony Bliar on TV addressing questions to Parlaiment and it occurred to me that he spoke only of 'terrorists' and 'foreigners' when referring to violence in Iraq. Not once did he acknowledge that it could be Iraqi nationalist we're dealing with.
When our leaders shower the airwaves with such propagande on a daily basis and no one steps in to correct them, then it is little wonder that the soldiers were able to de-humanize the prisoners. Not that it excuses anything, but the fault lies with more than just 7 lowly military police.

[Jim]

Germany, Japan, S. Korea. C'mon those were all about oil too. Liberation and creating a democratic state in the middle east was always included as ONE OF the reasons for the war. And it's legitimate. Only by creating a representative government where people have a say in there future and have hope will they not be so inclined to blow themselves up and murder others in the process.
Of course mistakes are made along the way. You can't create a new self governing, representative system overnight. It's never happened. Which is probably where we screwed up in Chile and Nicaragua. Yes, those failed, but we've had majore successes around the world too. But we're about the only country that admits we're not perfect.
Hilarious, Bush does what "bloggerheads" say he should do (apologize), and he's criticized for doing it incorrectly. He could endorse John Kerry and you would find fault with that.

[Chrish]

J.J,

"This time we are dealing with soldiers trained to high professional standards"? Wasn't it recently reported that they were not trained or allegedly "not trained"?

"their determination on war, their unmediated demonisation of the "enemy".", and "The
"terrorist" - this was, of course, the term used by the Nazis to describe the resistance movements throughout occupied Europe - has become a generic, demonised fanatic, capable in the popular imagination of the worst atrocities."?

isn't this the same type of "propoganda" the UBL's, the cleric's, and radical fundamentalist's of this world are saying; "The Great Satan", "the Infidel", or "the unbeliever", or "predisposition to see the enemy as inferior, bestial, or outside the law" based on the Koran as intrepreted by radical Islamic fundamentalists?

It was the same kind of rhetoric expounded by the North Vietnamese, indeed, Communist Russia. If I recall their mantra was "The Decadent West".

The learned professor made some interesting points in his argument but, I found it to be a very one sided view attempting to explain
"why soldiers did what they did". He completely ignores or disregards the actions, conduct, and behavior of those, the clerics and radical fundamentalists, who have also contributed to the creation of this situation as if they are without guilt or blame.

It's very easy to sit here and attempt to explain things, quite different when you're in the midst of a Hell on Earth.

I don't condone, excuse, nor justify what those soldier's did and wholeheartedly believe they should be tried and if found guilty, and they will be, punished to the fullest extent of the law. What is starting to bother me is that those up the chain of command might be quietly ousted while those soldiers will be used as scapegoats. Quite honestly I believe those in command of those soldiers should also be trotted out for all to see and also tried in an open court for all to see.

As time passes, and I will conceded this to Luke and other's, is that it is beginning to appear that Rumsfeld had prior knowledge of what was going on, not so bad there, but, did absolutely nothing to put a stop to it. If that is the case then he too should be brought up on charges, tried in an open court, and, if found guilty, should also be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[j.j.]

Crish,

you are fundamentally right that UBL, the clerics and everyone else use the same arguments. I can not disagree with you. It is exactly this that scares me. I believe, in some ways, the rhetoric coming from the White House or Downing St. is the same as that of these clerics. If their blatant use of propaganda to mislead their people is wrong, and it is, then how come it is OK for us to do the same thing?

You are again right in saying that the professor disregards the acts of those others who have contributed to this situation, though I think the point of the article was to criticize the fact that a standing army ignored it´s own rules, let alone the Geneva Convention.

Remember, ultimately this war was our choice, not anyone else´s. I don´t believe we thought the consequences through when we went in and everything that is happening now is a result of that.

Unfortunately, we are starting to see the consequences of those 7 soldiers´ ill-advised actions. I just watched a video clip where an unarmed american was beheaded in Iraq. The perpetrators may claim it was a justified act of revenge, but I say it violates all norms of human beings and civilized society. There is simply no excuse for what they did. I felt sick to my stomach! I fear this is descending into barbarity - but, call me a pessimist, I have feared exactly this since well before the war. It really is a shame for us, certainly for Iraqis, and for everyone else.

[Chrish]

On that J.J. I am in complete agreement with you.
and you're absolutely correct none of this justifies the actions of those nor any other soldiers who act in that manner.

For me it's also about pointing out that there are those who are actively engaged in inciting
their people or followers to insane acts of Barbarism that any sane person, people, or of religious belief would and should be horrified at.

I have no doubt that Our people in Iraq on hearing about this latest act of animalistic behavior will, quite possibly, anger them and incite them to act in same. Does that justify the possibility of retaliation? Absolutely not but, it is understandable.

I'm not trying to belittle the humilation and suffering of those Iraqi prisoners but, realistically what was done to them is nothing when compared to what Hussein did nor of what
has been perpetrated by insurgents, terrorists, etc. against Our people.

I've only seen clippets of that video were you able to find the whole thing?

To me it is not just about what "We" have or have not done it is also about what both sides are doing. And the sooner the news media and "learned" professors start pointing that out the better.

If all people of good conscience start making a stink about it, against not just the US and Britain but also those groups, religious leaders (clerics), and known countries that support them
perhaps this will all come to a stop and real discussions and real dialog with real solutions
may be found.

That will not happen so long as there are those,
through religious means, who continue to preach to
their followers "This is Allah's Will" and countries or government's that look the other way or encourage it.

[j.j.]

Crish,

I should clarify that the only part of the video I have seen is a few seconds released in which poor Nick Berg is shown speaking to the camera with his back against a wall. I have not seen any more, nor do I ever hope to. I did read a pretty graphic description of it in Der Spiegel Online, www.spiegel.de, but unless you can read german, I don´t think it will help you. I´ll tell you this, it is absolutely sickening and I almost felt like crying just from reading the account. Poor guy, I can´t imagine anyone deserves something like that. Just like you said, it makes one really, really angry.

On a short side note, there was a prominent Kuwaiti guy who, in a speech in Egypt, pointed out that what our troops did at Abu Ghraib is commonly done by many of the arab governments. What´s more, it is a widely known fact, yet ´the arab street´ fails to respond to it. Hypocritcial? You bet. But also sad that we (or at least some of us) have stooped to such low levels that we are now being compared to the ruthless thugs working for some of these middle eastern governments. I, like you and so many others, believe we are better than that.

[Chrish]

Thank J.J. I did see the one on MSNBC.com and
like you don't want to see anymore and was sickened by what they did...

I agree with you just because they, the Arab countries, treat their prisoners badly doesn't mean that we should also be doing the same. What
also angers me about those idiot guards is that that prison, Abu Ghirhab, was also where Hussein and company brutally tortured and murdered many of their people. Now if that doesn't add to the crap on our face I don't know what else could and
I can understand the anger and resentment of the Iraqi people.

All the more reason to ensure that those guards and their commanding officer's, however high up, are duly tried and, if convicted, punished to the fullest extent of the law. It also needs to be public if we are to regain any level of credibility with the Iraqi people.

[elmerfudd]

let them know what you think:

Joe Ponder, (352) 473-2451, 6986, Deer Springs Rd, Keystone Heights, FL 32656

George M Elliott, (302) 645-5071, 124 Gills Neck Rd, Lewes, DE 19958

Adrian Lonsdale, (508) 758-4046, , Mattapoisett, MA 02739

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(256) 259-5580

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Charles R. Grutzius, (703) 620-0929, 3221 Wildmere Pl, Herndon, VA 20171

Mike Kovanen, (509) 628-9560, 279 Gage Blvd, Richland, WA 99352

Dennis Spranger, (262) 637-6736, 3000 Olive St, Racine, WI 53405

[John Kiwi]

If America is stupid enough to put another idiot Bush in the White House in 2008, namely the Jeb.......I'll be emigrating to a more sane state.

How many times have we heard this before?

Hasta La Bye Bye... Have a safe trip. Don't let the door hit you on the rear as you leave.