Swift Boat Veterans malarkey

This is all I'm going to say about that incredibly vile group and their ads:

WASHINGTON (AP) Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service ''dishonest and dishonorable'' and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

The White House declined.

Can't it hurry up and be November?

Comments

[David Kenney]

you guys are so wrong and I am so glad you will lose bigtime with the Loser you have nominated. I would back Swiftvets anytime against your hero. Release the files and then we would all see who is lying!

[Pete]

This one's for David Kenney:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/comment/story/0,14259,1278021,00.html

[Pete]

Everyone will enjoy this game:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/quiz/questions/0,5961,1088715,00.html

[Jim]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Chrish]

Interesting, over 200 Vets come out and the news media immediately begins slamming them instead of searching for the truth of their allegations.

Kerry brought this upon himself, personal responsibility, by trying to use what he had so disdained in the past; his Vietnam experience.

I said before that what was done over 30+ years ago should not matter and should be left alone while all the noise was going on about Kerry and Bush during that time but, Kerry chose to try and profiteer off of his experience. Remeber he's the one who sat before the Senate and claimed all Vet's were baby killers, murderers, and rapists.
Now here he is trying to use his Vietnam experience as a means to garnish votes... Contradiction, wouldn't you say?

Over 200 Vets!!!! I suppose those purveyors of imagined Conspiracies are going to have if they're not already having a real field day over this one.......

More lies or more truth's? I guess that would depend upon whether one chooses to be open to the possibilites or close minded about it or you can always bury your head in the sand and hope it all goes away? Or how about sitting back and watching a really good and "truthful" movie like Farhenheit 911, or many of those other honest books that have been published over the past year?

[Chrish]

Following up to my previous post, I find it
interesting that Moore is pushed as some kind of God, the intellectual giants at moveon.org are considered the real purveyor's of truth even with their sleazy ad's, etc.

200+ Vets are labeled as an "incredibly vile group"??? Talk about your double standards...

[Jeff]

A very believable article:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005460

[Chrish]

Yes it is Jeff and who's to say it isn't the truth. I certainly can not, I wasn't there.

However, according to other "eyewitnesses" who were and who part of the Swift Boat Veterans tell an altogether different story; also equally believable. When you add in the fact that these "eyewitnesses" were not spending some of their time at the bottom of the river according to that vet, they would have seen everything that went down that day. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to imping nor push aside this vet's recounting of his experience by no means. I'm merely stating the facts as I've been reading them and as they come out. That includes both sides of the story. After all those vet's who were in their boats the whole time would have seen everything as it happened and this vet would only have seen things in quick flashes each time he surfaced for more air. Keep in mind he was also under enemy fire, at the time, and would not have had the time to take a leisurely view of what was going on on the surface.

In regards to the wounding Kerry received there are those who are saying it was only a scratch and that it was done by his own hand when he was
firing his weapon.

Either way we are still talking about 200+ Vets
coming out with this expose. No doubt, on one side they'll latch onto it for their agenda and on the other side they'll do everything they can to malign, ignore, and trash those Vets; also for their agenda. Then again, on the one side they say they have the truth and the other side says they have the truth. Just more dirt and garbage
dug up from the dump of history and the issues that really matter no longer seem to really be of importance.

[Truth]

Hey Chrish,

Over 200 vets. Wow, amazing they could fit that number on Kerry's little swift boat. The only guys that matter are the few that were on the boat and all of them, save one, support Kerry.

As for Kerry using his war record, he didn't post the official documents until after the Swift Boat Jokers for Bush made their initial accusations.

By the way, the military doesn't just "give" people medals. They do an extensive investigation. Are mistakes made? Probably. Five times with one guy? Give me a break.

Impugning John Kerry's service impugns every veteran's service and is especially hypocritical in light of Bush's amazingly questionable military record. Luckily for him and unluckily for the country, there are plenty of fools who believe this kind of crap. Hopefully, not enough to get him elected (re-elected not used intentionally).

[Chrish]

{Truth}?? I guess that would depend on whose
truth you're willing to listen to or support.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Kerry is the guy who came out at the Democratic Convention and wrapped his Vietnam record around himself; "John Kerry, reporting for duty.", and the imagry, and the members of his swift boat which, by the way, some,
if not all, are on Kerry's campaign payroll.

In addition, the Swift Boat Veterans are not paid by Bush, Bush has no control over them, cannot say anything to them, nor can he direct them to stop. That group, the Swift Boat Veterans, are in
the same class as MoveOn.Org, and other groups.
I believe they are called 227's or is it 557's?
You remember them don't you {Truth}? They're the groups that aren't funded by the Democratic Party but, have come out with all the ad's slamming Bush.

Another example of Double Standard's {Truth}?
Perhaps you should change your name to {Half-Truths}?

[Chrish]

Speaking of the "Truth", {Truth},

Rassmann's story in an op-ed by Rassmann himself:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005460

Rassmann's story as presented on Kerry's site:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0117d.html

So which was it, was he or was he not on Kerry's swift boat? He couldn't have been in both places at the same time. Perhaps, like the 200+ Swift boat veterans his memory is a bit off? One would think that in a life threatening situation like that one his memory would be a whole clearer than any other memory; one would think.

[Pete]

http://www.slate.com/id/2105353/

[Chrish]

Now this has to be the ultimate statement of
hypocrisy and double standards. While groups
like MoveOn.org are pumping out their ads and
Moore is pumping out his "documentary" Democrats
were applauding, kissing their feet, and Kerry was
silent.

Now that the shoes on the other foot Democrats are all up in arms, those same groups are whining,
and Kerry's now demanding that Bush do what Kerry
should also have done in the first place; put a stop to Their BS Ads and Moore's "documentary".
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5758982/

Ah well, what goes around comes around...

[Pete]

Chris, did you actually see Fahrenheit 911 ?

...and what, may I ask, do you think was the point of the MSNBC link that you posted? Did you read the whole thing?

[Chrish]

Yet Pete, I saw Moore's creation and yes I read
the article.

My point being is that since Bush like Kerry has
no control over the 527 groups, i.e., MoveOn.org,
The Swift Boat Veterans, etc. why are Kerry and
other's trying to put the blame on Bush for the actions of other's he has no control over?

Now some may say in the atypical conspiracy theories that they are funded by Republicans.
Guess what, the same could be said of Moore or of MoveOn, etc. that they are funded by Democrats.

So what's the fuss all about? Thos groups make ads and statements about Bush and now you have groups making ads and statements about Kerry.

Inevitably the whiner's come crawling out of the woodwork making a big stink for something they themselves have cheered, encouraged, and raved over for some time.

During that whole time not once did Kerry come out and condemn nor demand that it be stopped now that he's on the other end of the stick he's all bent out of shape and making demands.

Quite honestly both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party should demand that all of those groups stop with their BullShit ads and books. Both sides should get back to the business of making their positions known and understood and "why" either one of them should be put in office. Nader's looking better and better.

Whatever happened 33+ years ago in an unpopular and divisive war is better off left in the past
so what's the point?

[Pete]

Chris

You say, "During that whole time not once did Kerry come out and condemn nor demand that it be stopped...."

Can you be more specific about what Kerry should have stopped? I'm not sure what you're referring to....

[Pete]

More on this....

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_15.php#003296

[Jeff]

A bit off topic (even though it's another ad). Apparently, a couple members of the Iraqi Olympic soccer team is plenty pissed at being used in Bush campaign ads.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/19/iraq/index.html

[miriamg]

I believe the whole team shared the same sentiment, including the coach.

[miriamg]

Putting aside the disgusting attempts to question Kerry's service for a moment and turning to what he did when he got home...
I've just read for the first time Kerry's anti-war statement to the Senate from 1971. It's powerful, moving stuff, showing a profound moral sensibility. I urge anyone wishing to compare Kerry's character to that of Bush's to read the whole thing.

http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony

It starts:
..I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command... They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do."

And the final paragraph:
"We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission - to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning."

No wonder Nixon was so pissed off, and blindly jingoistic types like O'Neill have had it in for Kerry ever since.

How can Bush supporters have the nerve to question Kerry's integrity? What was their man doing back in 1971, besides not bothering to show up for his physical? What has GWB ever done, under his own steam, in his sorry goddamned life, besides get a free pass to everything due to his family connections? Or as Josh Marshall at TPM points out: "Until he was well into middle-age President Bush's most noteworthy public utterances seem to have been limited to various invocations and inflections of 'par-TAY' and reciting the alphabet under legal compulsion."

How the SBV nonsense has gotten this far is beyond me.

[miriamg]

Link above doesn't have full text. Here it is:

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Testimony

[TJ]

My brother once told me after attending football camp that defense makes the difference, but ya gotta have the "O." Words to live by. Kerry had to wrap himself in the flag. He knew--as the opponent has in every one of his bids for senate--that Bush would attack his behavior upon return from Vietnam. So, those opponents who say it is fair game because Kerry started it (and as my brother also used to say so there, nanny nanny boo boo) have to know that it was fodder for Bush and Co. who even stooped to condeming McCain for his service.

Also: the reps--mimicked by the lemming-like media continue to compair the ads of the swift-boat group to the ads on Bush's lack of service. The comparison is immoral. The ad created by O'Neill against his long-time nemisis is a lie. The fact that Bush did not attend Vietnam--and we cannot locate any records to prove he even completed his service is not a lie. The comparison makes me wonder if the media is getting the RNC talking points.

[N. Ward]

Okay, what is wrong with all you people who still, for some unknown reason, believe that ANYONE who speaks out against something that they believe was wrong (the US getting involved in the Vietnam War) is so horribly unpatriotic and bad? When did you people move to a communistic country? I for one am not a believer in either party, but I certainly believe in everyone's right to have an opinion and to express those opinions without being labeled something so horrible! And, quite frankly, why don't all you whiners go sign up for the Iraq war, go serve your time, be put in harm's way, and then come back and keep your mouth shut even if you see things going on that you don't believe in? Why? Because you all are a bunch of chickens_ _ t whiners who just always have to have it your way! You don't believe in democracy, you believe in naziism! If you're so religious, why don't you learn to turn the other cheek (or did you forget what verse in the Bible THAT was?)

[Leranzo Campbell]

A dumb thought.

If George W. Bush's handlers had National Guard papers removed/purged from his files then he should have a lesser

number of records on file than other Guards men at the same time and same place.

So why not compare the number of records of George W. Bush against other Guards men of the same place and time? One

would not have to read the other records, just compare the number and types of records.

Leranzo Campbell Retired MSgt USAF.