America-Bashing: The Revenge

Well no sooner do I come out in public to say what nonsense that lady was spouting about getting anti-American abuse hurled at her, than I suffer some myself.

It wasn't specifically aimed at me, but I went to a comedy night in Shepherd's Bush last night that I was enjoying thoroughly until the last act came on, a middle class Londoner named Stewart Lee, who has been a standup comic for years, aside from a brief stint directing the London stage version of Jerry Springer: The Opera. I don't know if that experience (whether through the events portrayed onstage or through the day to day contact with tourist crowds) informed his material, but he had a solid five-minute-long bitter tirade against Americans near the start of his act. Not good natured, not qualified, nor aimed at our leaders. It was aimed at everyday Americans and basically accused us all of being slack-jawed yokels. I normally have thick skin, but something in the way he went for the jugular really annoyed me and I was close to either getting into an argument with him onstage or storming out. I didn't want to play into his hands, however, so I saved my ire and sent him an email instead, part of which I quote here:

[Y]our tirade against Americans (not America) really got under my skin last night. You presented an odd portrait of a man who seemed to want to promote global peace and be against bigotry, yet you turn around and tar an entire country with the same brush - guilt by association, if you will. There was no hint of "some Americans" being slack-jawed imbeciles, there was no qualification. You basically took us all and put us in the same basket. I wasn't the only American there last night, by the way.

What you said on stage is little different than standing in front of a Jewish audience and telling "Hebe" jokes. Or standing in front of a black audience and telling "nigger" jokes. It just so happens at the moment that anti-Americanism is more accepted. That does not mean that you need to pander to it, especially as you spend the previous bit berating Little Englanders for their anti-Muslim bigotry. Can you see where this comes off as a bit hypocritical? Or, at the very least, as lazy, opportunist bush league comedy?

You might argue that hey, this is just comedy and if a few people are offended, dem's da breaks. But in order to attack bigotry you should not further it for a cheap laugh. You may have noticed losing the crowd as the night went on; I would suggest thinking a little bit more about how your bits are going to go down and who they're aimed at.

I know I shouldn't get upset by something someone says on a stage. But it's hard work to continually try to repair the damage done to my country's reputation by the imbeciles in charge there, and then go for an evening's entertainment only to be lumped in with them.

Kind Regards,
-Luke Robinson

Last night's events notwithstanding, I still hold that anti-Americanism here is not nearly as bad as Ms Gould asserts. A few bad apples don't spoil the bunch, in this case.

Comments

[Jim]

Well said Luke. Good for you for standing up. Bigotry is bigotry no matter what country, race religion it's directed at.

Regarding Ms. Baxter and Gould, it's very possible they could have bad experiences while you have good ones.

I used to do some stand-up, and I always hated when comedians went for the cheap laughs. I hate to speculate, but I'm guessing for a while this guy got some good laughs until after a while maybe he was beating a dead horse which caused the laughs to wane.

[Alexandra]

Hey Luke,

Sorry for not being around for a while. I'm glad you got in touch with Mr Lee - sometimes it's just too easy and cheap to ride the wave. For the most part, having been here in the UK for more years than I care to think, there has always been a low level of 'oh well Americans are so...'(fill in with pick of the day), usually followed by 'I don't mean you of course - you don't count'. I've never been entirely sure how to take that.

More recently however, I have noticed more people - colleagues, friends, acquaintences - really questioning more in sorrow than anger how on earth 'Americans' can be thinking of re-electing George Bush. The tone is more usually one of uncomprehending incredulity than negative bashing. There are of course the comments 'they must all be very stupid' from time to time, but you know, I might join them if on 3 November things turn out disastrously. Those who are particularly vehement are usually the type of people who also think the French smell of garlic and the Germans always bag the best places on the beaches, so why pay much attention anyway?

The problem comes when the likes of Harold Pinter turn to rabid anti-Americanism, as he has over the last year, betraying his own intelligence with precisely the kind of ranting that engenders the climate in which your stand-up could give his routine. Most people I have come across do distinguish between the regime and the people and the country. They are just very sad, as so many of us are, that what is being done in the name of the country and its citizens reflects so badly on us all.

On a more positive note, I sent off my and my sister's ballots last week at the post office near work in London. While I was paying for the stamps, the clerk asked me what those envelopes were since they'd seen a lot of them coming through recently and he was curious. I told him they were ballot papers, and he smiled, just saying it was unusual to see so many of the same types of envelopes. It cheered me up to hear it.

[Jeff]

The thing with America bashing is that so few Americans care about it. Just the mere mention of abuse of criticism from foreigners gets the average couch potato into crusader mode. After all, what could these strange people from foreign lands have to do with us and how dare they meddle in our business, never mind that what they do makes much less difference to our lives then what we do to theirs.

Bush supporters love Bush partly because he does what he thinks is in our best interest and tells whatever foreigners don't agree to go f*** themselves. The former is not a problem, America has a long history of doing what's in our best interest, otherwise we would not be the lone superpower. The latter is a problem... the best way to take advantage of someone else is to do it in a way they can't even tell their being screwed. Once you announce that you're screwing them, they wake up.

For Bushies who think that foreign and world opinion doesn't matter, ask yourself why America is so powerful? One of the biggest reasons is because foreigners admire us. They breathlessly await the next episode of Sex & the City, can't wait to buy Nike, drink Coke, and desperately hope to earn enough money to pay our outrageous college tuition fees just so their kids can say they were educated in the U.S.

An American abroad gets (or used to get) the red carpet rolled out like no one else. As an expat, this is incredibly visible... local clients argue viciously with local firms over fees, but never question the much higher charges from American firms because they assume its worth it. My American accent makes me a favorite for public speaking, it somehow adds credibility. My colleague has started putting his Harvard degree on his business card because it has such a strong impact in Asia (unlike in the U.S.) And yes, Americans abroad do pretty damn well with the ladies too.

I have to admit that I am quite the American snob... I always think things are better back home and that these foreigners are backwards (even if its not true). But do I go up to their faces and tell them this? No! Even though I often think this, why in the world would I want to give up my elite status just for the sake of righteous posturing?

The Bush administration is in the process of doing this right now... laying waste to our most admired status and all the benefits that go with it. Not only are foreigners against us and less cooperative (witness how reluctant our closest allies, the British are to send troops now that we're asking), but so are the foreigners who happen to be U.S. citizens and residents. Just walk down the hallways of our best universities and best companies... a tremendous percentage of the most skilled and talented among our work force are either foreigners or Americans with foreign origins. Walk around Silicon Valley sometime and you'll start thinking you're in Asia.

It doesn't actually matter so much whether we're right or wrong, as much as the perception. Sinking world opinion effects Americans. Much of the world toils so that we can enjoy our extremely lavish lifestyles. Why Bush feels the need to damage those relationships when there's no need, I can't understand.

[Jim]

Hmmm... as a "Bushie" I can't believe I missed that speech where the President said the rest of the world can go f**k themselves.

Jeff, this sounds like a little bit of a contradiction. You say, " One of the biggest reasons (we are so powerful) is because foreigners admire us." What?! Are you kidding me? Is "admire" another word for "hate".
But you also say, "Not only are foreigners against us and less cooperative (witness how reluctant our closest allies, the British are to send troops now that we're asking), but so are the foreigners who happen to be U.S. citizens and residents."

There is a difference between saying "go f**k yourself other countries" and not waiting for approval from everyone around the world. Our so-called allies were bought off by Saddam prior to the war. This is a fact. Not every citizen of course, but key players on the security council. So when they wouldn't go with us, since they were bought off, we looked even more like cowboys.
You think "Bushies" ,as you say, don't care about world opinion. But world opinion shouldn't be the deciding facoor on every issue. I want a President who will do the right thing, even if it's not always the popular thing.

Here's my favorite line of yours, "Much of the world toils so that we can enjoy our extremely lavish lifestyles." Please give me a break. I assume you are referring to the "sweat shops" of Nike and others where the locals maks two and three times the money their neighbors make. But less than 20% of what the job would be paid in the States. And yet many here think American manufacturers should be forced to keep their jobs in the States, thereby pushing products up to ridiculous prices and taking good jobs away from those in need overseas whom you fight for.

Yes, many "foreigners" still come here, becuase for now it's still the land of opportunity. It will be for a while until we become so socialistic that nobody can get ahead and people are stuck in the class they were born in.
Yes, one day if we're not careful, we will go by the way of the Athenians - the first democracy. I welcome everyone who wants to come here and be a citizen. Why? Because those that do are usually the hardest working and most ambitious and most innovative and will do the best for us.

Still waiting for my barrell of oil from Iraq and my check from the CIA.

[Jim]

Or maybe we should be like that model of a country, France where they kick young Muslim girls out of school for wearing head scarves.

I can hear it now, "it's for their protection..."

[Chrish]

Double standards Jim, double standards. "Do as I
say not as I do" kind of thing. Interesting how the left never won't go near the subject of how
the Germans, the French, and the Russians were selling weapons to Saddam and making money off of Saddam. Nor touch the subject of how members of the UN and what appears to include Anan in their "Food for Oil" program. Notice how there
has been very little, if anything, reported about that particular scandal?

Maybe they've not been able to find a way to blame on Bush?

[Jeff]

No Jim, I mean admire, although Bush is doing a good job of turning that admiration into suspicion and hate. Where is all the pop music from? America. Where is the software from? America? Which country runs the Internet? America. Where are the soft drinks from? America. Where are all the hit TV shows from? America. Even in countries that are more conservative than us, the populace is begging for Sex in the City.

There's no contradiction Jim, the lowered cooperation and admiration level is directly due to Bush. Ok, if you want, Bush didn't literally tell other countries to go **** themselves. Unfortunately, that's how they feel when the U.S. is the only security council country to veto resolutions. That's how they feel when we tell them we went to war to fight WMD when there isn't any. That's how they feel when we unilaterally withdraw from the Kyoto accords to protect our economy. That's how they feel when we level illegal steel tariffs despite supposedly standing for free trade or when we won't support the international court.

So you say that allies were bought off by Saddam and that it's a fact. No where does your bias show more than here. It may well be true, but in the face of absolute factual support for my contention that Bush lies and continues to lie, both you and Chrish fall mysteriously silent or start talking about gay rights and France. I have done my part on this and answered every one of your questions with absolute factual support. It's time that you acknowledge this.

World opinion... when did I say that it should be the deciding factor? Please find that quote for me. I just said that we should be aware of what we're doing. You assign greater guilt to the allies for being bought by Saddam, which again I stress may be true. You may be right, but does it matter? It's true that the U.S. is always assigned greater responsibility and higher standards. So what? Is being above the standard of being bought by Saddam what we strive for?

Bush could have handled this in a smarter way. He did not have to say you're either with us or against us, especially when world opinion was firmly on our side. He didn't have to lead the charge to bring inspectors in and only give them two months to sort things out. He didn't have to give Halliburton, Dick Cheney's company a no-bid contract. He didn't have to lie about WMD and he didn't have to mislead and lie about Iraq's connection to al-Qaeda. Someone in charge could have prevented Abu Ghraib.

10,000+ Iraqi dead (adding a hundred or two every week), 1,000+ American dead, 7,000+ American wounded, I think our actions are going to draw more attention, don't you think? Being bought off... well, the U.S. has never been guilty of that before, have we? Just like you, I want to hold our "allies" more accountable, but those actions are what countries do to each other all the time. War is not. In addition, I am voting for President of my country and not of others. So in that issue, what they do is completely irrelevant. The performance of my President is what's at issue and it is incompetent.

Re: your favorite line that "much of the world toils so we can enjoy our lavish lifestyles", I think you misunderstand. I'm not referring to the sweat shops (though will revisit that in a moment), I'm speaking about some basic economics. We're at the top of the food chain. I wouldn't mind keeping it that way and guess what, world opinion is part of that pillar.

About the sweat shops, Jim, this is probably the best example of you getting inventing facts out of thin air. 2-3 times more than the locals? 20% of what the job would be in the U.S.? Where do you get this crap? Have you ever been to a "sweat shop"? I have... on a number of occasions. I have been places where people use bare hands to break open old computers to use the parts, poisoning themselves and the river. Does 50 cents a day sound like 20% of what we get?

[dazed&confused]

hm, from the plethora of opinion, I can see that we have a bunch of highly educated and informed folks meeting on this site. So, can one of you really enlightened people tell me if the deficit is bigger today than it was on Jan 20th, 2001? Or has it, as Bush promised dozens of times, shrunk away and will actually turn into a surplus once again?

[now I remember]

oh, that's right, the deficit was actually a $178 Billion surplus on Jan 20th, 2001. Sorry, about the confusion, but I thought Republicans know how to handle budgets and Democrats create deficits. What gives?

[Maryann]

Jim, it's important to remember that US companies are also implicated in the oil-for-food kickback scandal. I'm not blaming America first (your typical response) but you have deliberatly left America off your list of recipients of funny money from the program, and it should be included.

[I remember too]

9/11, the greatest attack our country ever faced, which caused a huge ripple effect in job loss, insurance losses, people not wanting to travel, killing both airline manufacturers and the airline and travel industries. I remember the numerous corporate scandals of Enron and others which occured on the Clinton watch, but were caught on the Bush watch. I remember the fake economy of the dot.coms finally busting, where people invested millions in stand alone web-sites that did nothing. I remember the stock market already in serious decline in November of 2000, even though some say the recession "officially started" in March of 2001.
Thanks for remembering "Dazedandconfused" and "NowIremember"

[Jim]

Maryann,
I am not talking about the "Oil for Palaces" program which our so-called allies happily took part in. Yes, there were some American and British companies complicit in in this but to a much smaller degree.
However, that's not even to what I was referring to. I was talking about the bribes that Saddam gave the security council members prior to the votes at the UN. I don't think he bribed the US and Great Britain.

Jeff, you're right, the 20% number was very high. The actual averages are probably much lower. Doesn't that make it all the more justifiable for manufacturers to send some of their operations overseas? Or we could do all of our manufacturing here, which would make our products far too expensive for us to buy, let alone export. But we could always solve this by passing bans on importation of foreign products. This would make us a lot of friends, I guess.
Bush and the steel tariffs, Jeff? Yes, they were a mistake (did you write this date down?) and I said it at the time. But not because they were "illegal" as you say. The steel tariffs actually hurt American maufacturers who use steel, driving up their production costs. I always find it funny that when Americans impose tariffs, they are deemed "illegal", but when other countries do it, it's just necessary. But I didn't hear the world screaming when Japan was dumping their steel on us. Fortunately Bush realized his mistake and repealed the tariffs.

But wait, he's never admitted a mistake. It's just not fair that he won't admit a mistake on camera so the Dems can make a commercial out of it. No fair!

[Jeff]

Ooooh, he admitted a mistake on the steel tariffs? I don't think so... he repealed them after the WTO ruled it ILLEGAL and the European Union threatened to hit us with massive tariffs of their own. So I am right and you are wrong. We are members of the WTO and that made our actions illegal and we knew it beforehand.

What a way to admit a mistake... retreat after being pushed into a corner. This is of course the same leadership he showed on creating Homeland Security and the 9/11 Commission, pushed into a corner by public opinion and the 9/11 families. Same leadership he showed when finally allowing Condoleeza Rice to testify or flip flopping on gay marriage... when it comes to protecting his job, Bush backs down. So much for consistency, strength, and principle. He's just like any other politician (yes, including Kerry)... don't kid yourself.

Jim, you have a tremendous habit of misquoting those who oppose you. It starts with calling people who are against Bush against freedom for Iraqis, which you know is not true, and infects virtually everything you say. If you admit that Bush did something wrong, it's always with a big BUT... like a little kid who wants guilt absolved because his brother is guilty of something else.

Doing something wrong doesn't necessarily change my vote... Presidents have been messing up since the dawn of time. But lying to my face is a sure way to lose my vote:

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

Imagine the audacity of a man after we've in control of Iraq to say that we found the WMD, when later all of his top inspectors will be forced to say that we've found nothing. This is even worse than him saying that there was WMD before the war... we're in, we have a chance for certainty, but screw that, just lie.

Jim, about outsourcing, I NEVER said that it was a mistake for people to find a lower cost place to do things. Where was that ever a point in anything that I was saying? All I said was that we are at the top of the food chain and that world opinion is part of what enables that extraordinary status. End of story. Another great example of you making stuff up out of nowhere. I am 100% for our companies finding cheaper places to do business so they can earn more money. It's frightening how you can accuse me of believing something the polar opposite of the truth on something I never said anything about.

In response to "I remember too", spitting out the Bush line on why the economy sucks is breaking from reality. Ten Nobel prize winning economists, each of whom is way smarter than Bush, think that Bush's economic policies are the worst they've ever seen. Click if you're interested in finding out whether 9/11 is to blame for everything or not.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/pr_2004_0825.pdf
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/four_years_of_failure.php

[Jeff]

Here's an article that should be read if you don't think Bush's tax cuts were for the wealthy. We already know that Bush got taxed about $30,000 less and Cheney got taxed less by about $90,000. But the real winner was Teresa Heinz Kerry. Bush's tax cuts lowered her taxes by an incredible $290,000! Bush and Cheney count as small business owners, which Bush always uses to defend his cuts, never mind that earning $84 from a timber company qualifies you. All of this while we're looking at the biggest deficit in our history after starting with a big surplus. Yet somehow Bush thinks he's a conservative.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6308302/site/newsweek/

[Jim]

Just a comment to add. I am an American living in France for the past 4 years. I see a lot of anti-Bush attitudes here but not much anti-American. ALthough I'm sure that will change if Bush is re-elected. But I find it strange that the anti-American attitudes I see the most of come from the English. They were supposed to be our allies. After the war started and things looked like they were going well it was suddenly their idea to go to war. But now that things are turning out the way the French predicted they are blaming everything on the US. They are just as much to blame as the Americans who supported Bush and you can be sure the rest of the world knows it.
cheers....