Returning to America

Ha. Bet you thought I was moving back. Fat chance. I am, however, going back to New York for the weekend to attend my mother's book launch.

As often happens when I return to America and the warm embrace of family members, conversation will inevitably turn to my level of happiness living abroad and any possible plans I might have for returning. I've always maintained that somewhere down the line I will feel the urge to return home, but that's a nebulous time frame and I must admit that recently that timeframe has been pushed back a bit by events back home- well, not only events, I suppose I should say trends as well. I know I'm not the only expat who feels like his home has been replaced with a slightly creepier copy that he's not entirely happy with; nor am I the only one to feel the urge to return fading a bit.

There are some things happening that have been bugging me lately, and bugging all of you as well, which make me think to myself, This is not the America I left not so long ago. Here is a choice selection of recent developments:

• The House GOP caucus has voted to change the rules so that Tom Delay won't have to step down as their leader despite an imminent indictment from Texas. Note that he championed this same rule 10 years ago. The majority party is taking abuse of power to a new level, and nobody is standing in the way.
• The White House is reshuffling the Cabinet and restocking it with White House staffers - Bush loyalists all - which while not intrinsically unusual is still a categorical shift towards cronyism and unity of message. Look for Condi Rice in particular to become even more odious and two-faced than she was when she was "behind the scenes" in the NSA role. the days of candor have passed into dim memory, welcome to the new world of Up Is Down, Black Is White (New and Improved). The ongoing putsch at CIA is confirmation of this trend; there will be no dissent or variation from the party line.
• Meanwhile the government, in the form of the FCC, have cowed the media into almost total obeisance. Stations and media conglomerates are falling all over themselves not to offend the electorate (witness the recent refusal of several ABC stations to carry the nationally-broadcast Saving Private Ryan on Veteran's Day for fear of censure) - and it seems that every day brings a new case of "outraged" citizenry forcing the FCC to fine broadcasters for "indecent" material - even Fox is not immune to the whims of 3 complainants. And when the public expects, nay demands, this level of governmental control over the content of their media. Where is that going to go, I wonder?

I am doing a lot of frowning when I read the news lately, as I am sure are many of you. My home is an alien nation, and I'm not sure when or if sanity will be restored.

Comments

[Alexandra]

Luke - it happens that I just found the following quoted on The Nation's site, and it is slightly spooky:

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt. But If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."

--Thomas Jefferson, June 4, 1798, in a letter to John Taylor after passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Sometimes you can't help feeling there is nothing new under the sun, but at least there are words like these to light the way a little. Hope you have a great time, regardless of the alienation. There are, after all, only about another 53 million odd fellow citizens feeling the same way.

[rodi]

Luke:

I empathize with you totally, having left the US only 3 months short of 9/11. Every time I cross the border I feel like I've time wraped back into some weird McCartythism insipired America driven by some misguided sense of patroitism disguised as morality.

The media has gone to new heights of hypocracy. I opened the Calgary Hearld on Tuesday to find a headline about millions of American viewers complaining to ABC about their immoral and irresponsible behavior. The audacity they had to show show a "naked" backside view while promoting Desperate Housewives during Monday Night Football. Meanwhile, CTV, a Canadian network, carries the feed and was veiwed by over 2 million Canadians. Not one single complaint. And ABC caves in with an apology just to legitimize their complaints.

I turn on the World Series last month and find that "Take Me Out to the Ballgame", a 100 year tradition of the 7th inning stretch, representing one of the most non-partisan feel good symbols of America, has been replaced by "God Bless America." Who the hell decided that?

I go to the American newspaper I read on-line today to find a headline about the website that's been organized urging a Constitutional Amendment changing the eligibility rules for president, an obvious attempt to allow Schwazennager to run in 2008. Changing the most sacred document in the country for one person ???????

Flipping on to NBC's news last night, i see a story about the Russians publically admitting they are revising their nuclear weapons program for their national security. Hello, McFly? Did I step back into 1978 when the cold War raged ? Why on God's earth would Russia need to rekindle an arms race that was supposed to end in 1989?

Ummm, could it be because the entire administrataion of the United States Government has gone on some unilateral rampage designed to show the entire world that they could care less about anyone else besides the "new moral America?"

Am I the only one that finds it odd that oil has never EVER come up as a reason for invading Iraq? Is anyone really supposed to believe that a president who resumes a program to put weapons in space has any real interest in spreading democracy to the one country that happens to have more oil than anywhere else on earth (except of course Saudi Arabia)

Holy shit; I am so shellshocked by how far removed from reality today's America has become, I am also tempted to stay in Liberal Canada forever. But I refuse to succumb. We all have to remember that Clinton pulled a radical change from Bush-1 that led the country down the longest span of prosperity in its history. But we have to look beyond the shit that will happen in the next 4 years and find a better platform for 2008.

Let them pass more tax cuts because all these minorities and married women that voted for Bush will change their tone when they suddnely don't have the $200,000 for college. Or a job for that matter. And even if they did, "No chilld leftt be-hind" will prevent their kids from qualifying for the very institutions that the right wing wants to keep them out of anyway

Let them "reform" social security because the closer the baby boomers get to retirement, the more they will realize that Trickle Down Economics may work for those that don't need government programs but the rest of us need actual cash, not $15 billion deficits

Keep denying Americans drugs from those evil third world Canadians drug suppliers. That way, the Mercks and Pfizers of America can get richer while the voters that can effect change get sicker.

I find it easier to turn a blind eye living outside of the US because I can tune it out any time I want. But let's look at that Jefferson quote as an eerie foreshadow of the present. I will NOT give up on the feeedoms I was raised with. The right to choose, the right to voice my opinion, the right to practice my own form of morality (or none at all) without ABC telling my kds what is "moral", the right to travel to other countries and not be shot at for wearing red white and blue.

Did anyone think how shitty the athletes in Greece must have felt being warned not to flaunt anything American? What happened to pride ? Replacing it with unilateral hatred disguised as democracy is NOT an acceptable answer and Luke, I hope you continue to fight to kick the crap out of the right and take back the middle. The middle is my America, one that represents a liitle slice of ALL our viewpoints.

[Chrish]

Well, Rodi I can understand and agree with some of what you say but {you knew that was coming.. :o)}, with regards to your comment
about the American atheletes in Greece being
warned about not flaunting America I find
interesting. Considering that in this country, the USA, the Politically Correct crowd has been, for some time now, saying we shouldn't show Our Patriotism, we shouldn't wave Our flag in pride nor should we really "flaunt" Our American Heritage because "it might offend someone.".
That someone being newly arrived immigrants
to Our country or other immigrants who have
become citizens. Now, isn't that fascinating?

[Chrish]

On the lighter side, has anyone heard or
checked this out?

Try this before someone forces Google to fix its site:

1) Go to www.google.com

2) Type in: weapons of mass destruction (DO NOT hit return button!)

3) Hit the "feeling lucky" button, NOT the "Google search"

4) Read the "error message" carefully.

Someone at Google has a sense of humour. And will probably be fired... soon..

You have to laugh at this one.... :o)

[rodi]

Chrish:

I've been told by several that the Google thing has been that way for ages and has nothing to do with the current sistuation. But I'm not a techhie so I don't know. It is kind of funny

On the patrotism:
I never said not to be patriotic. I said that when I left (pre-9/11), we were all proud of America but didn't have to flaunt it in the entire world's face. Now, there is a flag everywhere. On almost every buliding, on everyone's houses, on athlete's uniforms, in hospitals, school buildings, vending machines, and virutally every car. You probably wouldn't notice it from the US. But come live in another country and you'll realize that it can be a tad irritating to a world that mostly opposes the current policies of almost evrything Bush does.

Flag waving was a great thing we all did on the 4th of July. That was an acceptable display of pride, celebrated mostly on the anniversary of the country's independence. But now we have to stick it in the world's face to show how proud we are? I'm proud, but do not have to board an airplane and announce my country of origin to the world. I find it pompous. And so does most of the world.

I'll bet most Americans don't know that the Patriot Act is actually an acronym for "Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intetrcept and Obstruct Terrorism" Act. How convenient to make it sound unpatriotic if you opose detaining and denying citizens their basic constitutional rights without any evidence.

As for immigrants, accepting one's new country does not have to come at the expense of giving up one's previous heritage or culture. "With us or against us" logic demands that you support everything America represents, which I venture to guess most new immigrants are probably not so happy to do at the moment.

I wear a small American flag on my jacket but I don't go around plastering it on our house, car, office cubicle and everywhere else. My version of patriotism is supporting an America that is respected around the world, not putting red white and blue on every single inanimate object in existance because terrorists attacked us.

[Chrish]

I agree Rodi, my response was in reference to the American Atheletes being told not to
flaunt being an American. I find that humorous in a setting like The Olympics since every country + 1 in the world is waving and flaunting their country.

On immigrants, be clear, I have no problems with immigration. I agree there is nothing wrong with maintaining ones heritage or culture and it would be wrong for anyone to feel that they have to or be ashamed of.

However, for those who seem to want to shove the idea that the rest of the Americans must walk around being very careful, cautious, and "sensitive" about being proud to be an American, the flag, and yes Our heritage because it might offend someone who's immigrated to this country I find equally offensive and idiotic. There was, not too long ago, one of those Politically Correct group trying to stop the playing of the national anthem at some school game because,
according to them, it might offend other's.
Thankfully, that BS idea was shut down and
shut down fast.

I am, as I've said before, of Mexican descent. I am as proud of that heritage as I am of my American hertiage. And damn anyone who is going to try and tell me that I cannot or should be ashamed to exhibit pride in my country, my flag, and my heritage here in the US because "it might offend someone".

Of course, I don't, when travelling overseas, go around shoving it in everyone's face. That's idiotic for someone to behave like that. My viewpoint is I am a guest, a visitor to another country and will go out of my way to show them my deepest respect and regard for them, their country, and their history. I don't have to walk around waving flags, banners, or any other thing in their's nor anyone else's face that's assinine and arrogant.

Nor do I go around sticking red, white, and blue stickies on every inanimate object I can find.

"With us or against us", "My Party right or wrong", "My country right or wrong", and even that mantra "Anyone But Bush" is nothing more than mindless nonsense; Lemmings following the pack over the edge of the cliff.

[rodi]

Chrish:

I agree with you that "with us or against us" is wrong and alientaes the rest of the world. The problem is that the US media loves to showcase these catch phrases. I'm not saying that we're all like this, but face it:

A large group of Americans hears this patriotic crap being said over and over and over. Eventually, they begin to think it makes sense and repeat it themselves.

Now, in my opinion, those in the redder parts of America buy into this media crap more. I'm not saying it's because they're uneducated or backwards. But living in an area with a less diverse polulation tends to expose one to less viewpoints. Thus, the idea that America's way is the "only way" distorts their opinions.

I know Delal and others love to claim that the reason we're more tolerant in California and New England is because we're all gay-loving, anti-war liberals. But it's simply not true. As one of Mexican descent, I'm sure you can relate when I say that these people who flaunt red white and blue may honestly believe what they say an do, if they had more exposure to other ethnic, political and social groups, they might question some of the old world right wing values that dominate the midwest.

Have you ever noticed how the media names every single action militray action as "Operation Desert Freedom or Operation Merciful Liberation" or other asanine lables? It's all subliminal and it helps justify current policies to those not lucky enough live amongst a diverse poplulation that might actually decide for themselves. It makes me puke every time I hear a new "Operation" name. That's not patriotism, it's a right wing media that refuses to question its government.

That's why I think expats have a distnctive advantage. I am able to see how ridiculous it looks to citizens of another country when an American arrives as a tourist. They visit Africa and freak out because the guide only speaks Swahili, they want cheeseburgers in countries that the religion does not allow one to eat meat and they expect the entire world to think we are this awesome nation of liberators.

That may have existed after WWII, but not now.

[vaara]

"The majority party is taking abuse of power to a new level, and nobody is standing in the way."

As the man said:

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

History is notably bereft of examples of one-party states that did *not* eventually descend into corruption and dictatorship.

[Chrish]

Absolutely correct Vaara, perhaps it is a
good thing the trend towards complete Liberalism has finally changed and has started its movement in the opposite direction....

[rodi]

Vaara:

Well put
Here in Canuckland, the Liberals have been in control of the Federal Government for almost 20 years and somehow everything still worls (mostly)

But they're not really liberal; that's just the name of the party. The funniest party is here in Alberta where the ruling party calls itself "progressive conservative". How's that for an oxymoron?

[Chrish]

That's humorous Rodi, here the Liberals
have tried to tag themselves as "Progressives". Interestingly enough
its comprised of that same crowd that are
Liberals.

"Progressives" is just another name for
Liberals.

[Jeff]

To emphasize just how much America is changing... and direct support for my contention that we're losing one of the pillars of our power, foreign science and technology talent. For those who think it doesn't matter what world opinion is, be prepared to deal with a future with much less of their help. Not smart when such a huge number of our graduate students are foreigners.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6542347/site/newsweek/

[Chrish]

Jeff,

You can thank the Liberals and their influence in our educational system for that whole thing. Considering the Liberals and the Politically Correct Moron's are more concerned with social engineering, alternative lifestyles, sex education or "how to put a condom on a cucumber", bilingual education, and social advancement (self esteem) than they are with reading, writing, and basic math. The colleges and universities have had to setup Remedial classes for the incoming high school graduate because they aren't at the level they're supposed to be. We have several generations now of "high school" graduates who are functionally illiterate but, according to the moronic experts, they feel good about themselves (self esteem).

Now if some of you can, for once, get past
the fact that the first article is from a "Catholic" or Christian site and focus on the content of the article maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about.

The Problem with Self Esteem:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0001.html

The Self Esteem Hoax:
http://www.dineshdsouza.com/SELF_ESTEEM_HOAX.htm

The Self Esteem Fraud:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2632_v126/ai_20301230

[Chrish]

Another article Jeff showing just how extreme the extremists on the left will go
while using plausible excuses and justifications.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139304,00.html

Nevermind that the first Thanksgiving was
as the word implies giving Thanks to GOD
and that the early settlers of this country
had come here to flee religious persecution. Seems religious persecution
has become much more prevalent, more subtle, and just as destructive as it was back then.

"Don't push your morality on us!" they say
but, seem to have no problem shoving their
religious intolerance on everyone else...

[rodi]

Chrish:

Interesting article, but I'm not sure I agree entirely. Like it or not, teachers that incorporate religion into the curriculum risk offending somebody. It's almost inevitable. This will probably scare the local school board enough to think they risk losing federal funding if someone files a lawsuit. While I do think they should mention that the Pilgrims thanked God, it should end there with no emphasis on what type of worship they engaged in.

I don't want Washington pushing its morality on me but only when it involves changing the Constitution, the country's most sacred legal document, for issues that are based specifically on one's religious beliefs. (ie: abortion, stem-cell and the definition of a marriage)

[Jeff]

Chrish, citing all these things that happen on the "far left bank" hardly explains 1) how terrible our education system is and 2) the impact of the dramatic drop in foreign student applications to our universities, which we owe largely to an equally dramatic drop in world opinion of the U.S.

Like it or not, our #1 advantage over the rest of the world is technology, which is supported mainly by foreign talent, which we are stupidly harming. Frankly, it starts with the President, who can't be bothered to even fake that he cares about what others think. Do you think the data that says we've lost huge numbers of foreign students in the past 4 years coincides with liberals?

As for religious intolerance, you can't possibly understand what it's like unless you're one of the minority, who either believes differently or doesn't believe at all. As a middle easterner, unbelievably, my parents chose to find work in and immigrate to South Carolina!

I enjoyed my youth there, but when I first enrolled in school, I did not know who Jesus was. Until you're surrounded by your 8 year old classmates, who are horrified at the discovery of an infidel in their midst, you can hardly understand what it is like when they tell the teacher who is equally horrified and sits you down to lecture you about going to Sunday school. A lot of measures to prevent such a scenario admittedly go too far, but again, you can't understand until you've been there.

[Chrish]

Rodi,

I can understand and appreciate your position however, denying the historical
religious aspect of this country's founding
simply on the basis that it "might offend someone" is equally offensive. Those facts
are historical and cannot be denied on such
a weak and frivolous excuse and that it what it is.

Equally offensive and ridiculous is the idea that someone on the basis of being offended over something that is historical might lead to a lawsuit is ridiculous
and, quite honestly, should be thrown out of court.

How they worshipped is also an historical fact. They were Puritans for God's sakes.
Religious Zealots? Perhaps but, nevertheless
they were the early founding fathers of this country; religious or not. Who, by the way, fled their country because of religious persecution. Have we gone full circle now and are seeing the early signs of a renewed era of religious persecution?

I understand the need for Separation of Church and State but, the extremes that it is being taken to border on religious persecution.

On the idea of stem cell research it has been shown that embryonic stem cell research
has produced nothing other than cancer, mutations, and rejection. Adult stem cell research, on the other hand, has shown very positive results with a higher probability of sucess than embryonic. Your a finanical
type you do the math. Would it be better to throw money at something that has a higher probablity of success as found in adult stem cell research or at something that has produced nothing but failure? Add to that probablity there is no need to destroy an embryo nor engage in human cloning. Everyone profits from it.

I am all for a civil union but stop at marriage. If the gay community is able to get all the benefits they are wanting why isn't that good enough since more than 75% of the people don't want marriage. Why not take that and, perhaps, at sometime in the future if the idea is more open than go for marriage. Incidentally, that percentage is also comprised of Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, etc. This isn't just some Right Wing agenda as the Liberal media would have you believe this goes across all
levels.

Good grief, Arafat had set before him, a few years ago, everything he wanted and asked for except Jerusalem as a Palestine capital and he rejected it. Think of what it might be like now if he had swallowed his pride and taken the best possible offer he was going to get with a possiblity of being able to establish a part of Jerusalem as their capital? A compromise.

On the matter of abortion, most everyone, excluding some, is in agreement and accepting of it accept the latest in abortion procedures. If, as you say, it is
Democracy and the majority of people are against that procedure, now, why is that not acceptable? And, if it's going to be pushed then why not reveal everything and everything there is about that procedure in all its glory? To date the discussion has been centered on ideas, concepts, and abstracts with no concrete images to go with it. Those who take the position of a Pro Life stance aren't allowed to show it; why not? If everyone is going to talk about choice, pro or con, then why not show it on the public airways? Because it would be offensive? So what, the channel can always be changed.

Most sacred legal document? Isn't the name of God invoked in that document? By the way another word or description of God is The Creator. Are we, in our blind determination to remove every vestige of the name God, also going to go through all of the documents the founding fathers wrote and scratch out the word "God"? Perhaps, because it "might offend someone"?

Excuse me but, if I go to England or any other European counrty or to a Middle Eastern country or an Asian country I do not impose my views or opinions on them. I do not start proclaiming that I am offended by the name of Allah nor of Yahweh nor of God nor of Buddha nor of Confucious and therefore everyone must stop using, saying, or uttering those names. Why then, should I or anyone else be imposed upon by others, who are the few, just because their sensibilities are offended?

For centuries now, there has been no issue with God now, all of sudden, it's this blind
rush to rip that name out of and off of everything. Just because "someone might be offended"? When does reason and common sense come into play over the Political Correctness and a few imposing their viewpoint on the many? Is that not what a Democracy all about?

[rodi]

Chrish:

I agree with your comments regarding political correctness. There was a period where the country was going out of their way to redefine who we are without offending anyone.

Personally, I HATE the term "African-Americans." When I lived in NYC, most Blacks I knew also hated that expression. It was some sort of condescending crap that the left wing decided to impose on an entire race of people to suit their own personal agenda. They're not African, they're American. Up here, blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians and Natves are all "Canadian" No labels attached.

I'm not suggesting that the lawsuits aren't ridiculous. I'm just pointing out that that's one reason why school boards are careful not to invoke religion into the classroom, even if it's based on historical fact.

Back to the abortion thing: I truly do not believe that most Bush supporters are actually in favor of banning abortion. I have to believe that because although I never argue with a Pro-Lifer (you can't ever win), denying women their rights in ANY WAY is simply discriminatory, sexist and backwards. Anyone who argues otherwise is either very far to the right or simply wants to return us to the "Happy Days" when women were second class citizens.

Jeff:
Wow; I can't believe your stories about being chastised by your peers because you didn't go to Sunday School. But then again, I can believe it. Which is why I choose to call blue states tolerant, but Bush supporters like to call us "liberal."

As for education, the voters made a strong point by choosing someone who's education programs have failed miserably in his own state. The message is that it's just not that important. This is a horrible shame. But then again, a "regular" guy that can't even give a speech without making numerous basic grammatical errors not only graduated an Ivy League school, he became president. How can a country demand better when the leader they emulate speaks like a third grader?

[Chrish]

Rodi,

This is what I mean by the moronic absurdity of the Left and their blinded rush to remove every vestige of the name of God from everything:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6578096/

Tell me this doesn't border on religious
persecution.

[Jeff]

Maybe it does Chrish... so what? What's the big deal citing these sparse instances of wacko activism? There are however, situations where things do matter to reasonable people who are not in the main stream and as I mentioned before, it is nearly impossible for a believer to understand why something so trivial and commonplace might be religious persecution to others... except of course when the tables are turned.

Try and imagine what your cries of religious persecution sound to non-believers. God missing from the classrooms? What's the big deal? For believers of course, it's God in the classrooms, what's the big deal? I agree the whole exercise often goes too far, but it doesn't help anyone if you aren't open to figuring out what something so ridiculous to your ears sounds rational to others. I already gave you a very personal example... was that religious persecution or just a couple of kids being surprised that someone different is in their class? Since I was involved, I get to make the call that it was the latter... but many would feel it was the former, especially when you're 8 years old.

[Jeff]

Returning to the topic at hand... the Tom DeLay issue is indefensible, yet now Republicans are charging that he's the victim of a partisan witch hunt. Never mind that several indictments of DeLay associates have occurred (by a grand jury, not the prosecutor), never mind that DeLay was censored by a bipartisan ethics committee in Congress. Nice job running on moral values and not having the least bit of spine to enforce it when personal interests are on tap.

[delal]

I just don't get this 'religious conspiracy' that you libs/dems continue to point to...

Funny how the sixties was the libs/dems liberation - sex-drugs-rock&roll (don't get me wrong I like 2 out of 3) - now the majority of those that lived through that era are the same ones that now support Pres Bush. Mostly because of the damage that was done to the USA 'psyche' during that period.

A lot more non-religious folks voted for Pres Bush while 25% of evangelicals voted for Kerry!

It's not that we want to bash gays - that could not be further from the truth - what we want is that the sanctity of marriage be protected. Call it civil unions - give them rights such as med insurance as a married couple - no problem.

As far as this site goes - looking over the posts - it's the same people who are consistently posting. Six months back - it had a bigger audience.

I think it has something to do with the name and the reason for the start of it - now....

IT'S OVER! GET OVER IT!

I keep saying and will continue...

Change the name to:

EXPATSFORBILLARY.ORG

C'mon Luke - you need better marketing!

[delal]

Oh-Oh!

Looks like the 'religious freaks' have come out of the wood work in your neck of the woods!

This could not be possible - could it???

You expats might have to come home... NOT!

Read it & weep girls and boys...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/25/wchris25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/25/ixworld.html

[rodi]

Chrish:

>Tell me this doesn't border on religious
persecution.

I'm not sure if I consider that persecution when you consider that the groups that settled America risked beheadings, torture or death. Whereas the worst case scenario in this asinine lawsuit is taxpayer money wasted and a civil judgment. Don’t get me wrong. The lawsuit you cite is an obvious example of the far left being as moronic as anything Rush Limbaugh says.

It makes me glad that at the moment, I get to vote in California but not one penny of my tax money goes to pay for shit lawsuits like this. The need for tort reform is so painfully obvious. But voters that don't live in states that file such absurd lawsuits don’t pay much attention.

Del:
>Funny how the sixties was the libs/dems liberation - sex-drugs-rock&roll (don't get me wrong I like 2 out of 3) - now the majority of those that lived through that era are the same ones that now support Pres Bush.

Although I missed growing up the sixties by a few years, I admire all the millions of "lib/dems" that refused to fight and enacted REAL social change. What you say is true (that they all vote for Bush now) And there's an obvious reason. In 1969, anything white collar was not cool to the youth of America. Wall Street was so desperate for clerks, they'd hire janitors to balance the books (true story)

In 2004, almost all college grads want high paying jobs in technological fields. Clearly the activist of today is more about signing petitions on hastily made websites than burning draft cards. One could argue that the Internet has hurt, not helped the cause of the Democratic party in the previous 2 elections. While they may spread the word about change and lay a lot of blame, today's youth is more inclined to set up a website with anti-Bush paraphernalia which makes them so much money, the idea of change or protest gets lost in the profits.

If today's 18-30 year olds really wanted change, they needed to get up off their asses on November 2nd. Since the same 17% voted as did in 2000, the Democratic party obviously did not utilize all its resources to the best of its abilities. Or we're permanently stuck with a generation that places more value in material gain and morality than social issues

>It's not that we want to bash gays

For the record, I agree with this point 100%. Just because I want equal federal benefits for all people regardless of their sexual preference, it does NOT make me a "dem/lib".

>I think it has something to do with the name and the reason for the start of it - now....

I'd also like to see more posts. But Del, if you go away, who will so eloquently point out all our leftist, commie, gay-loving faults ? :)

[delal]

One quick note rodi...

I can only speak about my two sons - 24 & 18 (the older having served in our Air Force) - both voted for Pres Bush. Their circle of friends - hard working young people are Republicans.

The challenge of the Democrat Party is that they have got to get control back from the 'kooky radical left'. Clinton was an expert on the illusion of moving towards the center while being an extreme leftist.

As far as this site is concerned - way back Luke got a bit of attention (me included) because of an internet article covering an upcoming protest in England. That was his 15 minutes of fame...

It's a shame - this site was a bit livelier in the past.

Having experience in both Marketing & Sales - I say - name change to...

EXPATSFORBILLARY.ORG

I dont think that Clinton (Bill or Hilary for that matter) could be described as an extreme leftist in any country outside the United States.

[rodi]

I don't think Clinton would be decsribed as an extreme leftist in ANY country.

Del,
please give me some examples of specific things Clinton did that brand him as "extreme".

Just because he doesn't approve of tax cuts and increasing the military budget beyond its means does not really make him an "extreme leftist". Just makes him not a Republican.

[rodi]

Del (and Jim)

I realized that I'm always telling you guys that everyone who is anti-Bush is not a "leftist dem/lib" but perhaps I've never clarified what I consider leftist. The following is an excerpt from an article in today's San Francisco Chronicle that is an example of the "extreme" left wing. No way Kerry was this far left.
===========================================
Transgender youth gaining acceptance
More schools are honoring students' gender identity

Rona Marech, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, November 26, 2004

A few days before classes started last fall, Caleb Ryen walked into the main office of his high school on a mission. He told a surprised administrator that though they had known him for the past three years as a girl, he identified as a boy, and he had a new name.

"I'm transgender. You probably have no idea what I'm talking about. I guess I'm going to have to explain it to everyone in the school," Caleb, 17, recounted. "I'm going to use the men's bathroom this year, so we need to figure something out."

A growing number of young people are openly questioning their gender in high school and even middle school, and as they do, educators are increasingly facing questions about rudimentary but sensitive matters such as bathroom usage and name changes. Transgender advocates say that all too often, administrators are either grudgingly making accommodations or altogether failing youth who say their internal sense of gender and their biological gender don't match.
===========================================

Asking people from the Midwest or Deep South to accept this as an issue deemed serious enough to publish in the paper would be a huge cultural shock and I could understand that.

But just because this type of article might appear in a newspaper that is read in a 9 county Metropolitan Area with 6 million people does not necessarily mean that they all have sympathy for this cause. But they accept it as part of a living in a real tolerant society.

Now try to picture the kid mentioned in this article reading about a serious push in the Congress to amend the Constitution so that people like him might be legally denied Federal rights. Equally shocking.

My point is that most precidencies lean somewhat to the middle because everyone knows that there are extreme right and left views. The only way to represent the entire country is to avoid letting Federal Law dictate social issues. States can concentrate on this as deemed by the local moral attitude. Congress shoudl focus more on the econmony, education and health care (at the national level) and stop worrying about transgenders, gay marriages, abortion issues and stem cells.

Can't we all just get along?

(And I didn't even mention the war)

[Chrish]

All very true Rodi, however it has been shown time and time again by those on the left with the extremely loud voices and the capacity for engaging in bullying tactics
that their agenda is the one that's shoved down peoples throats.

It amazes me that at just about every election the issues that really matter and are important are barely discussed. What is discussed and debated and argued over is Gay Rights and Abortion as if they were the only thing that really mattered.

And if one dares stand up and disagrees they
always come out with the usual shouting of varius names; homo-phobic, anti-this or anti-that and some even try to bring in the good old race card. These issues are never really discussed nor debated. If you agree then you're tolerant and accepting. If you disagree than you have some kind of phobia, a religious fanatic, intolerant, unaccepting, and anti-whatever. Even those
within the Democratic Party who also disagree are, sadly, hesitant or afraid to come and make their position known. Just another example of how those on the Left exercise their bullying tactics to silence those who disagree.

[Jeff]

Chrish, still waiting to hear from you on the Iraq on the Record report.

[miriamg]

That's classic Chrish - the "lefties are bullies who are only interested in gay rights and abortion."

Fact is, gay rights & abortion are only big issues became the EXTREME RIGHT have made it so.

It's the right wing who want to go out of their way to have a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, rather than just leave it to the states. And it's the right wing who want to overturn Roe v Wade.

Yet the Democrats are seen as being extreme and fringe and bludgeoning us with their left-wing agenda, just because they want to leave these things as they are.

I too would much rather discuss the important issues. Health. Education. Environment. The economy. Jobs. Let's discuss Bush's record on those.

These are issues Bush DID NOT run on, because his record is appalling, both as president and governor of Texas.

Yet you voted for him. Keep going on about "the issues" and then vote for the candidate whose record sucks on them. Nice one.

And stop with your pet peeves of "self-esteem" promotion in schools or illegal immigrants using healthcare.. Democrats as a whole do not endorse either policy.

Maybe if your man Bush bothered to fund education properly, so that kids can meet educational standards in the first place, you'd have a leg to stand on.

So, Bush's record on health, education, the environment. Please, let's discuss them instead.

[Maryann]

Wasn't Bush tryng to offer amnesty to illegal Mexican immigrants already in the country, or something like that, in a desperate effort to get their votes? Where was your moral outrage then?

Incidentally I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with anybody, legal or illegal immigrant, getting health care if they need it. This is called being a decent human being and if the richest country in the world can't offer this to people, we should be ashamed of ourselves.

Then again the current administration and their supporters have proved themselves beyond conscience or shame again and again, so why should it surprise me that they are ready to turn away sick people in need of care because they don't have the right paperwork.

[Chrish]

Oh please Maryann, get a clue. The whole
thing would not have come to the point of
a Constitutional Amendement IF the lefties
within the Democratic Party, the Liberal judges they put in place, and moronic mayors
who seem to think they can act outside of the law, and let's not forget the activists within the gay community hadn't pushed the damn issue. Who the heck are you kidding?

Health care? One would think that, at the very least, that would be offered to citizens of this country first before handing it over to illegal immigrants.

Yes, I am fully aware of the BS that Bush is trying to pull with his covered up amnesty just as I am equally aware of the Democrats who are just as guilty of perpetuating and encouraging Illegal Immigration. Both sides are wrong. One side encourages it for the cheap labor and the other side encourages it as future fodder for their party and the taxpayers have to foot the bill.

Sure, let us throw more money into education. Never mind that with all the money that have already received it hasn't gotten any better. Funding isn't the problem, the quality of the education or the lack of it is. Encouragment of laziness, lowering of standards, pass them onto the next grade even if they are failing. Really smart Maryann, really an intellectual idea...

You're damn straight I will go on about self-esteem that has been part of the problem.

[miriamg]

Funding IS the problem. Sure, it needs to be managed properly. But why else are schools allowing fast-food concessions into their lunchrooms? Because they NEED THE MONEY. If this government were truly committed to education, they'd have funded their own legislation, No Child Left Behind. They don't. But no, it's "self esteem" education that's the problem.

Are you a teacher, Chrish? My mother was, for 20 years, in the NYC school system. She had 19-year-olds still in 9th grade, back in the '70s. She was a secretarial studies teacher but had to take it upon herself to teach her kids how to read and write. She was and is a committed liberal. This is not a party-specific issue. Why was "self esteem" promotion pushed forward in the first place? To get these kids through the system as quickly as possible - due to education budgets being squeezed tighter than a gnat's ass. We can talk about stupid overly-PC educationalists till the cows come home, and in fact I agree with you about them. Stop just blaming the liberals for everything, for Godsake. The Republican Party's been in charge enough over the past few decades and have made things even worse.

Since you feel so strongly about this, get involved on your local school board so you can fight to get real teaching & discipline back into schools. I bet you'd find a hell of a lot of Democrats on your side & some grateful teachers.

As for the gay rights agenda - please. So it's gay people's fault that they want to have the same rights as everyone else. If only they'd shut up, stayed in their closet and accepted their second-class status, those nice people down in the Bible Belt wouldn't have wanted to amend the constitution to ban their rights forever.

I get the feeling you just feel intimidated by the more raving elements of Californian leftiness, you don't feel comfortable w

[miriamg]

(got cut off) -

you don't feel comfortable with them, you feel "silenced". So rather than align yourself with the moderates, you vote for Bush. Rather than work within the party for change, you vote for Bush. Based on what? What happened to the issues?

Check out Bush's record on education in Texas. Check out his record on the environment. On healthcare. I'd love to discuss those. Or does his record not matter? Do his lies, his erosion of the US's credibility in the eyes of the world mean nothing?

Love to hear a defense of Bush, showing that you actually voted FOR something, rather than just hatred and negativity against all the "liberals" - who are silencing you so much that you're always posting here.

[delal]

Whoa! Hold yer horses!

Now you're stepping into an area where I presently make my living!

The best thing that has happened in regards to education is NCLB! Okay - I'll give away a bit - I'm involved with company that specializes in information mgmt for educational institutions. Though we are national - we're concentrating on NYS.

Long story short - libs have ruined the educational system in the USA!

The one great thing that NCLB has forced... ACCOUNTABILITY! Plain & simple and it has the libs going nuts!

It's a beautiful thing - forcing change!

It's a wonderful thing - now NYS must report WADA - LEAP - STEP and AT-6 information and it affects funding! All states must do the same type of reporting though they have other names for the same type of report.

All this lib talk about funding - having 9th graders that can't read and a host of other excuses...

The good news is... this year will be a pivotal one - schools will be held accountable and those that do not measure up - well...

Vouchers will be available to parents, which will be a good thing. Incompetent admins - teachers will lose their jobs.

So keep complaining... we're changing the face of our educational institutions - it's about time!

[Chrish]

Miriamg,

Before you go off on a tangent why don't
you look into what Liberals, yes Liberals
who are mainly Democrats, have done to the
educational system. You talk about funding
as if it were a bottomless pit as if we should throw more money at failed programs
that don't friggin work. Bilingual education, social engineering, and yes,
self esteem. These are all programs started
by your, bend the knee, Liberals. Under that assinine guise of "we must understand their anger" nonsense while wringing ones hands. You talk of disciplne in our schools
who the hell do you think stripped away the authority of the teachers and principles? Liberals and their moronic, no common sense
ideas and agendas.

Excuse me but, the Democrats have been in control for some time and the Liberals have been in control of our schools for some time as well. I'm not talking about those who are moderate and have some common sense I'm talking about those who have the extreme
ideas and don't seem to give a rats ass about the outcome; functionally illiterate
people who feel good about themselves on and on and on. They aren't schools for learning anymore they're day care centers that are forced to put up bars, metal detectors, and security guards.

You can watch a commercial on TV telling you
to send your kid to their classes for reading, writing, and arithmetic and they
guarantee they'll raise your kids grade by at least one grade in public school your kid is attending. Think about that for a moment. You're paying taxes to fund a public school for your kid to learn BUT, you
have to send them to an outside company to teach them what they aren't getting in that
public school? What the hell is that all about?

I also have a good friend who is a teacher and, like your mother, also has to go through hoops to get her kids the materials and things they need for her class. We're
pumping money into our public schools and most of it is going towards Administration (Beauracracy) rather than where it should be going; the classroom. We have a beauracracy, the public schools, that are top heavy, to many friggin chiefs, paying themselves very nice salaries who are also
to involved with politics rather than their
damn jobs. I don't so much blame the teachers for the problem, although there are some who should go I blame the beauracrats in the public schools; the school boards. Sending them more money isn't going to resolve the problem it's only going to get worse.

Like Delal said in his previous post we need more accountabililty and more responsibility of those who are in control of Our schools.

Those two concepts seem to be the underlying problem with just about everything in our country; no accountability, no responsibility. I would add another one, no personal responsibility. Now, it's everybody else's fault.

And yes, I agree wholeheartely with Del and many others in Our country; It is about damn time! Our educational system used to be one of the best, if not the best, in the world and now it's down towards the bottom with that of other third world countries.

The Basics:
- Reading
- Writing
- Arithmetic
The Fundamentals:
- Personal Responsibility
- Accountability
- Hard Work
- Higher Standards
- Disciplne
- Self Restraint
- Social Conduct (Behavior)
- Respect

These all seem to be an antithesis to what
the Liberal agenda is and has become.

can anyone explain to me why the liberal states rank so much higher than the red states in education?

Yeah, or better yet, how many top universities are located in red states? Given how many red states there are, one would think that there would be more than 4 or 5 that would crack the top 50.

[miriamg]

Chrish - I agree totally with your agenda for schools. I'm a liberal. So do many other liberals.

Please, we all know about the need for accountability and good management and streamlining bureaucracy. But when you enact legislation, you need to provide the funds so that schools can fulfil the requirements.

http://www.factcheck.org/article181.html

Note the REPUBLICAN states who are complaining they aren't getting sufficient funds.

Tax cuts to the rich, a prolonged war in Iraq... You don't mind if billions of dollars are thrown at these. There's no accountability there. But somehow, when it comes to education, which should be our overriding priority, we have to be stringent and watch every penny and underfund it.

Considering the wealthy elite Liberals are in those states so having universities
shouldn't be any surprise.

Perhaps you could explain why it is that
in the lower income areas you know the ones;
the poor, the minority populations, and the
ones at the bottom of the ladder that Liberals are always "standing up for" never
seem to get ahead nor receive the same level
of funding that you find your precious blue states always receiving.

How interesting it is that Liberals are always ranting about who's creating divisivness yet they always seem to be ones
who come up with all of these cute little labels to hang on everyone; blue states, red states, them, us, xxxxxxx-American...

[miriamg]

Wow, that last comment was weird. So funding IS crucial after all?

Then you'll be relieved to know that in fact red states (oops, southern and rural states Republican-learning states) consistently get MORE federal funding per capita than blue states - and then complain about how big government is ruining their lives.

Inner city areas ARE the liberal areas. They're footing the bill to subsidise red states.

And the "wealthy elite liberals". Who they? You mean, people who went to Yale? It's wealthy elite conservatives, like the Bush family and their cronies the Saudis, who are running the show.

Red state/blue state - since these terms annoy you, you automatically assume a liberal thought them up. Wrong again, sorry.

[miriamg]

..should be "Republican-leaning" states, not "-learning". Mea culpa.

Yeah, getting back to Iraq, lifted this from MSNBC...

Unlike Vietnam, our allies are treating the local populace well and are fighting effectively.

Unlike Vietnam, our troops are not torturing anyone or committing any atrocities anywhere.

Unlike Vietnam, our allies are committed to democracy, and are capable and experienced in carrying it out.

Unlike Vietnam, we are backing strong, independent leaders, rather than quislings and puppets whose power base rests with our military forces and economic support.

Unlike Vietnam, we are beloved by the people we are saving.

Unlike Vietnam, our president and his cabinet officers are leveling with the nation about the costs of victory and likelihood of defeat.

Unlike Vietnam, we have the support of the international community.

Unlike Vietnam, it is particularly popular in the region where the war is being fought, and among the alleged audience abroad we seek to impress with our wisdom and resolve.

Unlike Vietnam, our actions are not inspiring anyone to take up arms against us and thereby increase the level of threat we face.

Unlike Vietnam, dissenters within the government, particularly those with expertise in the history and culture of the people we seek to govern, are being heard with care and respect for their views.

Unlike Vietnam, this is also true for experts in academia and with direct experience in these nations.

Unlike Vietnam, our wise leaders have a clear idea of the cultures into which we have inserted ourselves.

Unlike Vietnam, we are not asking the poorest and least well-connected among us to the fighting and dying.

Unlike Vietnam, our troops are well-trained for their well-defined mission, (a particularly hearty congratulations goes to Colin Powell for so effectively preventing the same kind of abuse of grunts he witnessed in Vietnam).

Unlike Vietnam, our civilian leaders are taking seriously warnings and advice of more experienced military leaders.

Unlike Vietnam, those who point out problems with the present course are not being sullied as “counsels of despair and defeat,” and giving “aid and comfort to the enemy.”

Unlike Vietnam, we have the whole thing well-planned out.

Unlike Vietnam, this is a necessary war against an enemy that had the will and capacity to threaten our lives at home.

What a typically arrogant response... Very
humorous.

Switch and bait tactics, get off topic, change the points, and throw in a little
"see how great and educated we are" condescension...

Ignore the points while throwing in some "Unlike" this and "Unlike" that...

Incredibly humorous...

ooohhh, i changed the topic. whatever.

[Mark]

Found this article interesting. Apparently, some of Bushie's federally funded abstinence programs push faith based to another level by misinforming kids that:

• Half of gay male teenagers have AIDS.

• Touching someone's genitals can result in pregnancy.

• A 43-day-old fetus is a "thinking person."

• HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, can be spread via sweat and tears.

Seems consistent with the Republican modus operandi. Excuse me while I go trim the hair off my palms.

[miriamg]

So referring to facts and sticking up for your opinion is arrogant and condescending and showing off that we're educated. But we have to put up on this site with hate speech about "the liberals" and meaningless phrases like "intellectual elite", which apparently is some kind of insult (I think it means "I don't like what you said but all the facts support your position. Damn you for outsmarting me." Actually sounds a bit Goebbels.)

I knew about sore losers, but I've never met sore winners before. Bush won, and people still come here and talk about how much they can't stand liberals. You WON. Why are you here? Get out and enjoy the next four years and leave us to stew in our cesspit of arrogant educated liberal elitism or whatever.

[Chrish]

Miriamg,

With your statement of, "Please, we all know about the need for accountability and good management and streamlining bureaucracy. But when you enact legislation, you need to provide the funds so that schools can fulfil the requirements.", I am in complete agreement.

I never said funding was bad nor would I disagree that more funding would be better.
What I do disagree with is not having the
accountability on where that funding is spent. We consistently hear that more funding is going to the schools and yet the
quality of education doesn't improve, and the teachers are forced into scrounging for the supplies they need to for their classrooms. One has to ask where the hell is all that money going to if not into the classrooms? Please note that as far as I'm concerned the first place it should go is into the classrooms and to the teachers. The administrative side can have whatever is left.

I recall reading an article a couple of years ago about a school district, I believe
in one of the northeastern states, that had
been given over 5 Million dollars by some
organization to improve the quality and provide the resources in the poorer schools.
After five years nothing had been accomplished, the schools were still in the same state as before, the drop out rate was still high, and the money was gone, spent.
Nobody in this school district could account
for where the money had gone nor where it had been spent. An investigation was started and then the story dropped off the face of the map.

Don't get me wrong on this one as I do not claim nor allege that this is an example of Liberal behavior.

However, one cannot deny that many of the
off the wall ideas that have been pushed into the schools and I don't believe I have to repeat them are primarily by Liberals.

In regards to the article I would have to say that if Bush knew about this then he
should be called to account for it. But,
not to appear as if I'm defending him you
should also be aware that the schools have
always engaged in those activities. They
receive federal funds based on the number
of students on the rolls. If a child is
absent, or worse, has dropped out then that
will result in that school getting less funding. The more kids not showing up on the rolls the less money the school will receive. Naturally, the school principals and the school boards being people of honesty and integrity will see to it that
the rolls are reported honestly and truthfully... :o) Now we both know that that previous statement is a whole lot of BS
and the schools are really going to inflate
their roster in order to get the funding. I
can't say I blame them but, I still have to ask where's the funding really going to?

So, before more money is going to be given to the schools it seems it would be far better to enact checks and balances to ensure there is accountability and responsibility by those who have chosen to take on the task of educating the kids. Wouldn't you think? That's what I mean when I say why throw good money after bad.

To me, the kids are the future and if the
school boards, the principals, and yes, even
some of the teachers aren't going to take their responsibility seriously then they should be removed. Replace them with people who will take their responsibilities serously and spend less time engaging in political games.

Seriously, is that really too much to ask or expect? How many generations of kids have been lost now directly attributable to
school boards, principals, and some teachers
who are more concerned with agendas, politics, and funding themselves rather than teaching the basics, personal responsibility, accountability, personal conduct, and self restraint?

For my take it seems to me that a child should be able to receive the same level and quality of education in any school anywhere in this country whether a rich or poor neighborhood.

[Chrish]

Miriamg,

Regarding funding one has to wonder what is
really important to those politicians, both Democrat & Republican, when they manage to
come up with 15 Billion dollars for their Pork spending.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140216,00.html

And for those who are less than tolerant toward people of faith or Christianity you
might wonder how it is that Pelosi garnered
a few million dollars of taxpayer money to
fund a Catholic school... Well, I guess you
could say that, at least, that money is going towards education?

Seems we not only need more accountability in Our schools but, also accountability with the very politicians we put in office.

I really, really hope that Vietnam post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek....or we are dealing with some seriously uneducated people on this site.

Interesting read at the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/30/a_lesson_for_the_liberal_elite/

[miriamg]

Chrish -
You talk a lot of good sense re education system and very well put indeed. Again, I'd say this isn't a party-specific issue - politicians across the board have let us down - and often it's dealt with at local level, so implementing change or accountability has to happen within your own community or state.

It's an endemic problem - some schools in my area here in London are notorious. However, the local authority next to ours - one of the poorest and with the highest number of pupils in the country for whom English is a second language - has started to turn things around by giving schools great support. It's often down to the headmaster being given authority and having confidence of staff. The school where my partner volunteers does an amazing job with kids from extremely deprived backgrounds. The teachers there have good morale, considering what a tough job they've got. A lot of them, however, are Australian. It's still a struggle convincing able people here to go into the profession. So yes, I agree, it's not just money, it's often an attitude and respect for the teaching profession and awareness of the needs of the students. It's a change of culture.

I have my own personal peeves re declining standards of basic education. In the past couple of decades, personal expression was encouraged - great - but at the expense of spelling and punctuation. Now there's a generation of young adults, supposedly very well educated, who look like idiots when they write. But they're really good at expressing themselves - which I suppose is more useful in these days of spellcheck! I still can't stand it, but I think it's a matter of the pendulum swinging until we get the right balance.

[Chrish]

Well stated Miriamg. I have also heard of
different schools who've been gifted with
an exceptional teacher(s) or principal(s) who's whole heart is into the education of the kids.

I agree funding is important, no doubt about that, but equally important is the support a teacher, a school, a district receives or provides with only one purpose in mind; the kids. They are the future.

How very true it is that a teacher, indeed
all teachers, deserve the respect and a better pay. They've earned it, they work hard for it. They have the minds of the kids in their hands to nurture, mold, encourage, and teach. My God, what a profession that is and they deserve all the support and anything else they need to do their job. The politicians be damned as far as I'm concerned and stop with the politicizing and do what needs to be done.

Like you said this goes across party lines and both sides have failed not only the kids but, their parents and ultimately Us,
the community.

On the other side of the coin is the responsibility and accountability of the parents with the education of their kids. These days if a child is disciplned the parent, in most cases, will raise holy h_ll
about how their innocent child is not guilty and are being persecuted. The authority the schools and the teachers once had has been stripped from them. Last year a school in Pasadena woke up the city to the fact that in that school the teachers and administrative people were frightened of a number of the student body. Threats of physical harm, chaos in the classroom and the Principal afraid or refusing to do anything about it until a teacher spoke to
the local newspaper.

I am wholeheartedly for education and for the kids they're the future and what better way to invest than in our schools and in our kids? That investment however, also needs to be governed with accountability and responsibility over the flow of funding. Where's the money going? I would gladly pay a bit more in taxes to go towards the schools *if* there was the assurance the money would go into the classrooms first everything else is secondary.

What I don't understand is why the politicians on both sides do not seem to get it. This isn't rocket science, it's common sense.

A note of well done to your partner for their volunteer work and don't lose heart.

Perhaps you're right the pendulum of change
is swinging back in the right direction.
Hopefully we can stop it when it is balanced
and not watch it swing into the opposite direction. We need balance not extremes.

[Yankabroad]

I've written so many anti-Bush, and even anti-America columns in the local paper (I live in Asia) that I'm sure the CIA has a phat file on me. In addition to that, I stopped filing tax returns about 2 years ago. I don't have to pay taxes until I make more than 80,000 dollars U.S. a year, which I don't, but I think that I'm still obligated to file a tax return.

In essence, I'm so fed up with the whole military industrial complex that I've simply cut off all my ties with America. I've got a couple of bank accounts, with a little money, but other than that I've compeletely divested.

The sad thing is that the rest of the world is really no better. America simply has the spotlight, and we are all acutely aware of what she does, and doesn't do. Many countries, like the country in which I live, sadly, aspire to be like America. Not the America that could be, but the America that is.

I don't think I'll ever be able to go back.
But, there's a lot that I will miss. A whole hell of a lot.

RR

[Jim]

America does suck. With luck you will be able to make it North to live in Pyongyang where everyone is treated equally. Shot equally, starved equally, opressed equally and fortunately there is no evil commerce.

[Mark]

Time passes, but Jim is still fucked in the head.

[Jim]

Sweet language Mark. You financial tycoon, you. ;-)

[Mark]

Nothing but the best for you, Jim!

[Mark]

Speaking of finances Jim, please don't take any of my advice. It's a great source of entertainment for me to see people like you lose money by mindlessly following Bush by paying companies that I own and opening up private accounts my firm. I say put it all in stocks that appreciate 10% every year. Any other choice would be unpatriotic.

[Jim]

I think I will leave it all in my SS account or under my bed. Afterall if it's Bush's idea it has to be bad.

[rodi]

RR

To clarify a bit, US law says that every US citizen in the world is subject to taxation on their WORLDWIDE income, regardless of residency. This means that according to the law, the IRS doesn't care if you live in Canada or a cave with Osama bin Laden. Legally, as long as you retain your citizenship, you are obliged to file a US tax return (unless you are some starving hippie that makes all your income off the books or under the table)

You are allowed to exempt $80,000 US Dollars
from US taxation and various other foreign credits are permitted (ie: if you have investments or bank accounts in other countries)

There is only 1 other democratic nation on Earth that taxes based on citizenship and not residency. Is it ludicrous? Totally. I have to pay a professional to do my US and Canadian taxes every year because there's no way I can maintain investments and do all the conversions and forms without the right software (available only to tax professionals, of course)

The reason they do this is there is an estimated 9 million Americans living abroad. If you stop filing you are risking denial of entry back into the US and a barrage of interest and penalties if they track you down. Of course they probably would never come after you unless you were making millions but that's besides the point. The IRS knows that many expats will never bother to file once they leave the US for good, but the ones that want to return tend to be those working in lucrative international contract jobs (thanks to Bush & Co) so many of them will file returns unless they enjoy living amongst the anti-American Muslims of the world.

I'm all for not filing but I'm not sure I’m ready to never return to the US (at least while my family is still alive) also, if you don’t file and they know you are supposed to, your passport renewal will be denied which can be a big hassle

But I see your points about the rest of the world trying to emulate America, good or bad.

I just saw on the news yesterday that the Leader of the Universe is floating an idea called
“The United States of North America” whereby the borders of Canada and Mexico would be totally eliminated. The pros (all to the US) are that taxation and employment would all follow the US rules (big surprise) thereby eliminating trade disputes like the Mad Cow Crisis, Softwood Lumber dispute and rules governing employment visas to work in the US

Know what? If that happens, I swear I am leaving the continent and never returning. Can Bush get any more powerful? Juilas Ceaser must be rolling in his grave.

[Jim]

No no no. It's United States of the World. HA HA HA

[Mark]

No Jim, Bush's ideas are great... I mean really, really great for Bush's friends like me!

Forget the measly 10% return that you're dreaming of, if you owned oil stocks, you would have made over 100%. You would have paid much less tax for your dividends and much less tax for your capital gains than the average working schmoe. Best of all, I'm helping rebuild Iraq and supporting our troops. Every time Halliburton cheats the Army, it's cha-ching for me!

Now of course, you want to give me all your SS money to invest in the stock market so my firm can charge you and the government trillions in fees. Bravo! My bank account owes people like you, who can't tell they're being cheated, so much. I can't thank you enough.

[Jim]

C'mom Mark you have all the traits of a Republican. You're profiting off the war, pissing on the poor, you're a racist. Come away from the dark side. Have you broken your arm yet from patting yourself on your back?

[Mark]

You're both right and wrong. I am showing you all the traits of a RICH Republican, including all the guys that you voted for. Congratulations! But I'm nothing like the poor and middle class Republicans, who are completely screwed.

During election time, I wanted to give back money that I'd earned over $200,000 (as per the Kerry plan). I would have also rolled back what I earned on dividend and capital gains tax cuts. Why? Because the U.S. of A, the great country that you keep waving your flag for is financially screwed.

Foreigners (those people that you hate) now own close to $3 trillion more of us than we do of them. They are your creditors... they even own your mortgage. The dollar falls daily. Oil just hit $56/barrel. The trade deficit in January alone was $58 billion.

Do the math Jim. I know adding and subtracting aren't your strong point, so I'll help you out. That's $600 per person in the entire country. If you have a wife and two kids, that's $2,400 of debt EVERY SINGLE MONTH for your family. Europeans are now coming into the country to buy property because they think it's dirt cheap.

Unlike the RICH Republicans you voted for, I actually care about the poor and the middle class. But since you don't care to be educated, I'm delighted to let ignorance guide you to your doom.

[Jeff]

Hey Jim, you're a Detroit man. Why don't you put your SS in GM? If you had done so only a year ago, you would have lost nearly 50% on top of the 40% that you lost by holding the U.S. dollar! Those who were holding GM stock lost 15% in one day... good safety net for your retirement, especially when you still owe the government 4% just for the private account.

[rodi]

Jeff and Mark:

We already know that Jim is all for privatizing SS and virtually anything else Bush says is OK because...well, that's Jim (and most of America, unfortunately)

What do you guys (including you, Jim) think of yesterday's Completion of the Decimation of American Public Land? Let's hear it for the 51-49 Senate vote to allowing drilling in the Artic National Wildlife Refuge, an act that has been voted down year after year after year?

First of all, kudos to the American media for barely making mention of one of the worst possible environmental decisions in US history (and the 2md biggest victory in the Bush Dictatorship on terms of Energy Policy)

Then there's the irony in the entire situation. As Mark alluded to, oil hit another record high yesterday and yet another one today. The AP reported today that the average price of gas has hit $2.09 nationally (still a bargain compared to the 84.9 cents a liter I have to pay) Let's briefly re-examine what caused this to begin with. OPEC continues to voluntarily agree to increase production. World leaders agree that there is no danger of the world's reserves running dry. What we are witnessing is the market's reaction to the perceived ongoing threats in the world due to US foreign policy.

Additionally, as we have also mentioned previously, the real issue is the fact that China and India are now the 2nd and 3rd largest consumers of the world's oil reserves. Demand in China will continue to increase tenfold over the next 50 years, that much is a fact. So the question becomes how to deal with the new reality of the world's oil supply.

Any administration that was not so far to the right would probably focus the attention on trade relations, thus allowing the entire world to share in the world's supply. Naturally, the Bush administration chooses unilateral protectionism disguised as "spreading freedom throughout the Middle East."

Once again, I often feel I'm one of the only Americans educated enough to be outraged by what continues to occur under this administration. Reports from Bush's own agencies and studies from the EPA clearly state that the amount of oil that can be extracted pales in comparison to the irreversible damage that will be done to the Caribou herds, and countless millions of acres that must be trampled upon to get the oil out of Alaska and into the lower 48. Yet the administration conveniently DELETES any parts of the reports that are detrimental to Bush policy BEFORE the Senate even gets to see them. How on God's earth can anyone not call this a form of Fascism????

Oh, I stand corrected. Yesterday's John kerry.com email was actually DEBATED on the floor of the Senate since he had the unmitigated gall to muster up 260,000 signatures in 24 hours in another hopeless Democratic effort to defeat legislation that will harm the next 10 generations of Americans.

Mark; let's get back to the real issues here. Yeah, Bush policy helps my portfolio but how much more destruction of Earth’s resources are we going to be able to tolerate without dire consequences? I reiterate my position that the amount of total secrecy, deception and censorship that the Bush administration operates under is an IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE !!!! But I guess until Jesus comes down and tells him he should get oral sex from interns in the name of freedom, we're all fucked.

[Mark]

Rodi, I know where you're coming from, but I would recommend that you save your energy for a forum that's more useful. This board is dead except for Jim, who wouldn't recognize a fact if it bit him in the ass. I mean it's cold in Detroit today, so there is no global warming... LOL!

What purpose is there to engage in intelligent discussion? Forget about Bush, it's much more entertaining to focus on Jim, who proves time and again, the adage as old as mankind... dumb people get screwed!

[rodi]

Mark

Yeah, I see your point
Is there another intelligent forum you can recommend that we might be able to convince semi-intelligent Bush supporters why they should educate themselves next time?

Like who cares whether you come back or not. It makes no difference....and at least Bush has the guts to stand up to the gutless wonders of this country, France and others and stand for something!! Stay away...we're better off without you.

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