A Day Late and a Dollar Short

A display of Karl-Rovian elocution spilled from the lips of Our Dear Leader yesterday, in a half-hearted quasi-condemnation of the very ads that his campaign sponsored. In an attempt to curtail any public backlash against their attacks on Kerry's war record, Bush called Kerry's service in Vietnam "admirable" and said all of the malicious ads on both sides should stop, including the Swift Boat vets one. However the damage to Kerry's reputation has already been done, and Bush did nobody any favors by equating the content of the Swift Boat vets ads with the ones from the 527s. The Swift Boat ads have been roundly discredited whereas the Kerry and 527 ads have been largely truthful. All political attack ads are not created equal - and if Bush is saying he thinks all the attack ads are going to stop now, just as we're coming into the final 10-week home stretch to the elections... well, who does he think he's fooling?

Comments

[Chrish]

Tit for Tat, what's good for the goose is good for
the gander, what goes around comes around, and
if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

Come on what's wrong with everyone? If it's OK for the Democrat's attack dogs, i.e., MoveOn.org to spit out their crap why isn't it OK for the Republican's attack dogs, i.e., SwiftBoat Vets to
spit out their's? I believe it's called Freedom of Speech or does that ideal also only belong to Democrats or more specifically the Left wing?

Everyone knows that both sides have s__t on their hands and it's time for both sides to use some soap and water, wash, clean up their acts and get back to the real issues. These are pointless distractions and a waste of time.

Both Kerry and Bush should issue a joint statement denouncing, rejecting, and condemning all of these ads by all of the 527 groups. Then follow that up with a joint news conference reiterating that statement.

[Jim]

Oh my. The hypocrisy of it all. Moveon.org gets a free pass while the media and this site rip apart the swiftvets. I guess I would be a little mad too if Kerry said I committed war crimes.
I guess some people think freedom of speech is fine as long as what's being said is what you like.
It's either all the 527's get banished or none of them. You can't have it both ways.

[Maryann]

Weirdly, I kind of agree with Jim and Chrish on this one. I haven't seen any of the ads in question so I might not be qualified to comment on this, but I'm just glad somebody, somewhere along the line is trying to stop this process from degenerating further down the embarassing, contemptable path it seems to be taking. I donb't know what the MoveOn ads said, but if they are blasting Bush, in some ways they are not really contributing to the level of discourse surrounding this election.

In practical terms, the sooner the candidates start actually talking about issues of substance, the better off the democracy as a whole will be. I don't doubt Bush's motives were poll-driven and this decision was made under duress--I'm just glad somebody stopped the whole disgusting business from snowballing even further.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=US&cat=Energy_Policy

[Chrish]

{no name},

Absolutely, that's a major issue and one I can
get behind. We don't need more oil drilling
what we need is a sound, well funded drive for
R&D of cleaner, renewable alternative energy.
The technology is there it just needs more funding
I would think 5 - 10 years we should be well on the way to ridding ourselves of this oil dependency; that is, if there is a true political will by either side.

Here's another issue I'm throwing back at you that needs to be dealt with because this is also costing us:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/08/26/study_hits_illegal_immigration/

Sadly, neither Republican nor Democrat wants to deal with. Here in California the Democrats have taken it one step further and are doing everything they can to block any kind of immigration enforcement. I would further submit that they are aiding and abetting illegal immigrants and are accomplices after the fact.
The Republicans are, in their own way, could also fall under that category since they're supported by businesses and corporations who are after the cheap labor. Bottom line We, the taxpayer, have to foot the bill.

[Chrish]

It would appear neither side of this issue is going to take heed of their own stupidity and the smearing, whining, and complaining are going to continue.

MoveOn.org, another 527 group,
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130091,00.html

Will the Kerry campaign or the Democratic party practice what they preach and condemn their ads? Probably not. And here we go with round 2. This
will last for a time until another 527 group comes out with their smear.

Both Bush and Kerry need to issue a joint statement condemning, rejecting, and renouncing all of the 527 groups and their crap ads and follow that up with a joint news conference reiterating that statement.

These 527 groups are nothing more than the attack dogs for both parties and making a whole lot of useless noise....

Shut all of the 527 groups down and shut them all down now......

[Jim]

It's funny how people on both sides are so blinded that they think whatever their party's 527 ad says is the absolute truth. The truth is people need to look beyond these things. Besides what happened 30 years ago (positively or negatively) is hardly relevant compared to what people have done in the past 5-10 years. Why was Vietnam ever made a central point of this campaign?
The truth is people should vote for the candidate who stands for what they stand for. Like him or not I think people know what Bush stands for. Kerry seems to stand for being awarded 3 Purple Hearts and not being Bush. On every other issue he seems to change from day to day.

[Chrish]

I am in complete agreement with you Jim. I believe that if the Democrats had not made such a big deal about his Vietnam record at the Democratic Convention this, in all likelihood, wouldn't have happened. Who's to say.

It would seem that the only one who appears to get it and come up with the only plausible solution is, dare I say his name, President Bush.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5829601/

If Kerry and the Democratic spokeholes have just a pinch of common sense they'll jump onto this band wagon if, for no other reason, to shutdown these 527 groups. If not and the smear antics of
the Democrat's attack dogs, their 527 groups, continue then we can only expect to see the other sides attack dogs doing the same. Tit for tat.

Me, I'm rather tired of these playground antic's both sides are engaging in and wished they'd get back to the real issues, the real discussions, and the real solutions. This is like watching a bunch of so-called adults acting like grade school kids picking on each other. As soon as that side hits back this side starts the whining, and crying about "not fair" and goes crying to the teacher, and then hits that side again; Un-friggin-believable. And these people actually expect us to believe they should be elected as leaders????

[Jim]

Frankly I'm not sure how I feel about the 527's other than to say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. They are probably both used as surrogates by their respective parties. Then again it's possible they truly are independant. That's not so say that major contributors don't give both to the GOP and Swiftvets - just as major contributors give both to the DNC and Moveon.org. But are they coordinating attacks? Who knows. Polls seem to show that for both sides, negative campaigning has worked. Unfortunately it's true. I just think it's funny when one side complains about the other when they both do it.

Here's a question. First I hate when people throw out the "freedom of speech argument" in general because it gets used way too often. But if 527's were eliminated altogether, is that a violation of our freedom of speech?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/25/opinion/meyer/main638571.shtml

[Jim]

Yes Anonymous,
The evil Bush family, per your link. And one party has a dedicated cable network. Assuming the writer, Dick Meyer, refers to Fox for the Republicans. Whereas the Democrats only have CBS, NBC, CNN, ABC, BBC, CBC, Al Jazeera, New York Times, Los Angeles Times.........

[Jeff]

Jim & Chrish,

I find it so convenient how you guys move off topic and have a lot more to say about issues that are debatable, rather than the ones that aren't. I have taken some time to lay out all the places that I think the Bush administration has misled or outright lied about Iraq, but have never, ever heard any direct response.

Never have I heard any of you address why it's ok for Condi Rice to tell me that she never heard any evidence that the uranium purchase in Africa was a forgery, despite having a CIA memo in her hand. Never have I had it explained to me why it's ok for Dick Cheney to tell me that Saddam had "in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons", despite the fact that he had access to volumes of contrary evidence from our own intelligence that we did not. Never have I had it explained to me why it's ok for Cheney to say that Iraq is the geographical base for terrorists especially on 9/11, despite again reams of evidence to the contrary.

Let me go over the written record again. The Iraq on the Record database includes 237 misleading statements by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, and Rice. "Most of the statements in the database were misleading because they expressed certainty where none existed or failed to acknowledge the doubts of intelligence officials. Ten of the statements were simply false." Cast all other arguments aside for a moment, is this the type of performance that you deem acceptable with tens of thousands of lives (if not more) are at stake?

I assume that the motivation for your continued posting is at some level to convince people that Bush is a better choice. Well, I think most of us are not die hard Kerry supporters, but rather completely sick of being lied to by our present administration. Does Kerry have plenty of dirt on him? I have no problem acknowledging that. He would not have half the problems had he not misspoke himself about a hundred times.

So what? If Kerry is a flip-flopper, that's fine, if you acknowledge that Bush is flip-flopper too and a liar on top. This is a man who once told us, "In 1995... the head of Iraq's military industries defected. It was then that the regime was forced to admit that it had produced more than 30,000 liters of anthrax... This is a massive stockpile of biological weapons that has never been accounted for, and capable of killing millions." Of course, Bush failed to tell us that the same defector, Hussein Kamel told U.N. inspecdtors that Iraq had destroyed all of those 30,000 liters. It doesn't take much imagination to see how these guys were fooled by Chalabi.

Jim, you tell me that you know what Bush stands for. What exactly is that? I think the evidence is uncontroverted about the lying to get re-elected and you have provided no rebuttal. What else? Lowering taxes that give back disproportionately to the wealthy. Bush paid about $30,000 less, Cheney paid about $90,000 less, how about you? Running the biggest deficit of all time, arguing about the cost of the war and being wrong, arguing about the number of troops required and being wrong, setting illegal steel tariffs and being wrong, losing a few million jobs, and giving no-bid immensely profitable contracts to a company that gave you a $20 million severance package.

This is not 527, media bias, or anything else. This is simply the President's record. So what does he stand for?

[Jim]

I see. Sorry I went off topic.

[Jeff]

I see. You're still unable to answer any questions or even acknowledge Bush's lies.

[Jim]

Sorry, I was too busy commenting on the 527 ads, which is where this line of posts started.

[Jim]

Besides, I bore Miriamg when I say what you don't want to hear.

[Pete]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_22.php#003355

[Chrish]

I concur Jim, I also thought this was about the 527 groups and who's smearing who?

In regards to Jeff's comments I believe the 9/11 Commission answered all of those questions in their report. I take it Jeff that since the 9/11 Commission's report didn't say what you wanted nor expected them to say their report can be sidelined or ignored? May I also assume that had the 9/11 Commission report stated what you believed you would be justified?

[Jeff]

Jim, I am not bored by what you say, otherwise would I keep asking you?

Chrish, how are my questions about how Bush sold the Iraq war answered by the 9/11 Commission report? Have you actually read the report? I have. It is... not surprisingly about 9/11. But the now famous line about there being "no collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al-Qaeda is damning.

How do you justify our leaders saying, "Saddam Hussein is a threat because he is dealing with al Qaeda.", "sinister nexus between Iraq and al Qaeda", "liberation of Iraq... removed an ally of al-Qaeda", "Czechs alleged that Mohammed Atta, the lead attacker, met in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official...", and "You can't distinguish between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein when you talk about the war on terror."

If you don't think that's misleading and lying Chrish, that's fine. Unfortunately, over half the country and most of the rest of the world do. That's just about the link between al Qaeda and Iraq. What about what they told us about believing that Iraq has "in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons"? What about the uranium from Africa, which was a outright fraud, when afterwards, Rice lied about knowing it was a fraud? What about aluminum tubes, mushroom clouds, mobile bio labs, unmanned aerial vehicles, all of which were severely doubted by the available intelligence?

Fact of the matter is Chrish, 9/11 Report or not, there is no WMD, our intelligence cast tremendous doubt on all those assertions, yet our leaders continued to say that there was no doubt, exaggerate, and lie so badly that sometimes the lie was instantaneously detected. Rice: "[N]o one in our circles knew that there were doubts and suspicions that this might be a forgery." Except for the memos and repeated communications from the CIA.

[Maryann]

I've never seen any of the anti-Bush ads and I'm curious if there are any that are comparable to the Swift Boat ones. I'm not talking about ads that were submitted to Moveon.org that were never aired, or those that make generalised statements about Bush's policies or character, I'm curious if there are other ads that specifically accuse Bush of an act that has been proven to be false.

[Chrish]

To be honest Maryann I'm not so much bothered about the smear campaigns being pushed by both sides as I am about the double standards being displayed by the Democratic Leadership. All these past few years there has been the complaints about civl rights violations, stamping on ones Constitutional Rights, Freedom of Speech, blah, blah, blah. That was fine. All the while the smear ads coming from the 527 left leaning crowd, not to mention, that "disengenuous film maker" and barely a complaint from the Republican side nor a renunciation from the Democratic leadership. Now comes the return fire from the Republican 527 groups and now it's an endless litany of whining, complaining, accusations, cries of "foul" and "not fair", on and on and on
as if we are all supposed to believe that Kerry nor the Democratic Leadership don't have some hand in the kitty?

Anyway, I hope these links help Maryann but, does it really matter in the end?

Moveon.org
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/Politics/The-Smear.Campaigns-670128.shtml

Whom has ties to whom?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/8/23/153719.shtml

"A disengenuous film maker"?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/brentbozell/bb20040507.shtml

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-24-moveon-ads_x.htm

GOP Challenges ads by 527 groups.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/01/ad.complaint/

Leftist Groups anti-Bush ads could undermine Kerry's message, "an ad by a MoveOn.org affiliate claimed Bush used the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as an excuse to invade Iraq."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/12/112343.shtml

League of Conservative Voters?
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15255

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129783,00.html

http://www.moveon.org/images/ads/censure.pdf
http://mfile.akamai.com/11671/rm/cdn.moveon.org/streaming/ri/censurerm.rm

Jeff, you've made comments in the past regarding staying on topic and sticking to the subject. I will follow your advice and stay on topic and wait
until the next time the opportunity appears....
Bet that just ruffles your feathers, don't it? :o)

[Maryann]

There is a difference between freedom of expression and libel. One is illegal and one isn't. I'm trying to determine whether any of the anti-Bush groups aired ads that were actually libelous, by making specific accusations against Bush that weren't true (as in the Swift Boat ads). If they did, then yes, the Kerry camp are being hypocrites. If they didn't, then they aren't. So no, in the larger scheme of all of our lives, it doesn't matter, but I'm interested in exploring this topic with a knowledge of both sides of the argument. If nobody knows, it's no sweat I can research it myself.

On a related note, you HAVE TO BE JOKING that the right said nothing about Farenheit 9/11. They didn't even bother seeing the movie before raking Moore over the coals. Let's not be fantasists Chrish, whatever our political leanings.

[Jeff]

Not ruffled at all Chrish... in fact that's exactly what Bush wants to do. Table all the unanswerable questions until after the election.

Incidentally Chrish, you just made the assertion that there was barely a peep from the GOP about the 527 ads, then posted a link to a story with the header "WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Republican National Committee has launched a wide-ranging legal assault on more than two dozen political groups working to defeat President Bush, with hopes of moving the case to federal court."

Kind of contradicts your "quietly dignified" GOP claim.

Incidentally Chrish, you just made the assertion that there was barely a peep from the GOP about the 527 ads, then posted a link to a story with the header "WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Republican National Committee has launched a wide-ranging legal assault on more than two dozen political groups working to defeat President Bush, with hopes of moving the case to federal court."