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November 04, 2004

Comments

Alexandra

The really sad thing going through the comments that are flying back and forth here on the site between those of us who are dismayed at the result and others who support it, is that, as someone put it, we don't get each other. At all. I can't understand how they can be so blind and they think I am basing my opposition on hate. It isn't hate. I know plenty of people, mainly my British friends and colleagues, who do hate Bush. Even some generally right wing Brits. But it's disappointment that fuels me, disappointment that the vision of America that I was brought up with, of a country that was open and non-judgemental and allowed its citizens the freedom not to conform and to live up to the ideals on which it was founded by Enlightenment thinkers, has been hijacked and diminished by a regime based on self-interest and the corralling of the very liberties that the Declaration of Independence insisted upon. The country that my forbears went to from several different corners of Europe to find a better life is now a place where my family feels utterly alienated. It isn't hate that drives us. It's grief at the loss of something dear to us. There are now two visions of America and we have to stand up for ours.

Jim

I'm glad for you that it's not hate, Alexandra. You're right in that it's sad that we don't get each other. Too many on the left think conservatives are stupid (and call them so) while too many on the right think liberals are amoral.
I too believe in the America that you grew up with. I believe everyone has a right to speak their mind. I haven't heard of anyone going to jail or disappearing because they expressed their views against the President. I haven't found the camps that we put all the muslims in after 9/11 (like we did to Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor).
You talk about self-interest. I'm not sure if you're referring to Halliburton contracts (which they got many no-bids during the Clinton administration too) or if you mean stealing oil or what. It's weird how we "stole" the second largest oil reserve in the world and yet our gas prices went up 30%. We must not be doing a good job of stealing. I guess we're still stealing from the Kuwaiti's - even though they are one of the few countries whose people said they wanted George Bush re-elected - along with Poland, The Phillipines, and a few others.

But don't give up. Keep speaking out. But freedom of speech doesn't mean that others can't disagree with you.

But when people burn photos of the President or his stuffed likeness it does little to draw moderates to your cause. Maybe nobody on this site did these extremist things, but a lot of people did, while others cheered at many rallies. It doesn't help. Yes, these people have the right to do that, I would never want to take it away, but it doesn't help in the recruiting efforts.

vaara

I doubt whether there'll be an exodus of liberals from America, but it seems quite likely that there will be more of a tendency for liberals to move *within* America.

Certainly if I were living in a 'red state,' especially one that had just voted for the amendment making it forever illegal for me marry my longtime partner, I'd be much more inclined to a sane state like Massachusetts or California, than if Kerry had won.

Tuesday's election showed that there is now a clear, irrevocable division of America into two nations. Of course there are 'red' areas within 'blue' states and vice-versa, but in general the signs are clear: the Ohio Valley, Southern, Southwestern, Plains, and Rocky Mountain States hate freedom, secularism, and tolerance; the Northeastern, Great Lakes, and West Coast states don't.

Is it 1861 yet?

Jim

Wow. Talk about extreme one way or another. My state was barely blue. But if it was barely red does tht mean we would have to kick out the 300,000 muslims, 2,000,000 African Americans?

It's too bad these maps make us so divided. America is neither just blue or just red. We're purple. By looking at these maps some people seem to think that in every blue state they worship Karl Marx, while in every red state they want to kill gay people. In reality most states were won with a 55% majority or less. I think there are a lot more tolerant moderates out there than you would have us believe.

callen

Lets all expatriate to where it is nice to live BUT KEEP A VOTING RESIDENCE in a swing area. That way we can live where we will have a better life but exercise control for future progress. No problem with dual or triple citizenships. The concept of home is OUT OF DATE.

vaara

Jim: I agree, most states are solidly purple.

But since the Republicans seem so keen to pursue their "divide and conquer" strategy -- workers against unions, whites against blacks, rich against poor, rich against middle-class, middle-class against poor, South againt North (what was all the Massachusetts-bashing about anyway? imagine if some Kerry operative had tried to bash Texas!), English-speakers against funny-speaking immigrants, everyone against gays, everyone against non-believers -- not to mention the "with us or against us" worldview as expressed in so many words by the President, is it any wonder that those of us on what Republicans are calling the losing side of history are starting to feel like much of the country doesn't really want us around anymore?

Chrish

"But in an American election, there are no losers, because whether or not our candidates are successful, the next morning we all wake up as Americans. And that -- that is the greatest privilege and the most remarkable good fortune that can come to us on earth.

With that gift also comes obligation. We are required now to work together for the good of our country. In the days ahead, we must find common cause. We must join in common effort without remorse or recrimination, without anger or rancor. America is in need of unity and longing for a larger measure of compassion.

I hope President Bush will advance those values in the coming years. I pledge to do my part to try to bridge the partisan divide. I know this is a difficult time for my supporters, but I ask them, all of you, to join me in doing that."

www.johnkerry.com

Wake up people and stop with your incessant need
to divide and plug everyone into one of your silly
categories.

Your own candidate is expressing unity, working together, healing and you're all expounding the opposite. What's with all of you?

Jim

Vaara,
I really have to take exception to your saying that Republicans are "white against blacks, rich against poor, rich against middle class, english speakers against funny speakers, etc.
First of all the President is a funny speaker - especially in Q&A.
I missed the rhetoric that said whites were supposed to hate blacks. Don't tell my fiance that I hate her, please. I also don't get the rich vs. poor thing. Yes, Republicans believe that those that work the hardest should be rewarded accordingly - but it's more than that. It's not that Republicans want to reward Bill Gates and the Walton family. We want everyone to have the opportunity and the incentive to become the Waltons and the Gates and the Bill Clintons and Ronald Reagans and Jimmy Carters. Only one of those - Gates, had any money at all when growing up. In a smaller government where everything is not handed out, there is more incentive and more opportunity to succeed.
Massachussetts bashing? It was called liberal. If Kerry were to call Texas the most conservative state in the union - I really don't think the President would mind.

Jeff

Jim, you always talk about stealing oil and gas prices. That's not right. Firstly, with regard to stealing oil, can you not distinguish between actually stealing it and choosing a country to attack because it has so much of what we need? I know that you think the dominating reason to invade Iraq was to save the Iraqi people and rid the world of Saddam, but the President's credibility really got torched because his two EVEN MORE IMPORTANT reasons were WMD and the connection to al-Qaeda.

Given those two claims fell far short of his rhetoric, that really leaves the motivation up in the air for people to guess, does it not? You've often told me that oil makes no sense, but the fact is, it makes tremendous sense. The oil prices are money out of your pocket, but who said the President cares about you?

Instead, why don't you check out the stock prices of Exxon (XOM) and Chevron-Texaco (CVX)? Do you notice a pattern? Why are their profits skyrocketing to record levels? I bought XOM at $34 right before the war and now it's over $50. So the money is going right to my pocket, not only in share prices, but in dividends. Of course, my dividends are taxed less because of Bush and if I sell, my capital gains are taxed less because of Bush. If I'm doing well, just imagine how well the big shareholders and executives are doing. I'm sure they hope oil goes to $70!

So let's see, we invade Iraq, everyone in the world pays more for gas, the oil companies get rich reporting record profits every single quarter, and son of a gun, guess who contributes most to Bush's campaign, guess where both Bush and Cheney came from?

For you to debunk the stealing oil thing just on your gas price is really naive. I've already shown how I profited... in fact, Bush is really great for my pocketbook. I just don't think it's right the way he's done it. Just imagine how grateful I would be if I owed millions of dollars of profit to Bush...

delal

Amazing! You guys just won't quit - huh...

I spent the last three days in Alabama - last week I was in Denver, CO - the week before I was in Buffalo, NY and Montreal, Cananda...

I live in NYC - I'm fortunate - I travel often and meet many folks - white, black, rich, poor, gay and hetero...

I'm first generation born in this country - English being my second language - from a family with 5 siblings who all succeeded on our own merits. My oldest son served in the Air Force - did his time in Kuwait/Iraq.

Am I missing something? The country you speak of is not the one where I meet, greet and do business with many on a day-to-day basis.

Sometimes I wonder if the problem may be that most of you spend too much time 'pontificating' instead of actually spending the effort to really get out and understand your neighbors...

Understand what America is really about; understand that the majority are basically fun loving people who only want the best for their families (the majority voted for Bush).

It's not as convoluted as you make it seem.

Get a life and start living and loving!

Jeff

Um, which part of your post had facts in it?

ebg

I certainly understand what America is about. That is why I do not intend to ever move back there.

The situation for gays in America has now become dangerous, and it will continue to become more dangerous until the religious right is forced to loose its hold over the Republican Party.

You will, perhaps, say that I am weak, craven, a whiner. That I should not give up on America, that I should go home and fight. I really don't care what you say. I really don't give a damn what you think of me.

In the thirties, there was a time when it was possible to get out of Germany. Then, there was a time when it was no longer possible.

Jim

wow, ebg. Comparing us to 1930's Germany. That's sad.
You all fear the religious right. That's scary. This country is ruled from the middle. It's set up that way, because everyone gets a say. That way extremeists right or left don't rule. paranoia. The fear of things that haven't happened.

ebg

I have every reason to fear the religious right. They will not stop until I have NO rights.

Chrish

Well stated Delal!! Is that you Del? How you
doing old man and where the heck have you been
all these days? Hope all is well with you and
family.

The problem here and with most Liberals is you all
live in a bubble. You talk, breathe, live, and communicate only with other like minded people. You have no exposure to other ideas, thoughts, or opinions. Indeed, you wouldn't dare go out and just sit and talk with everyday folks. It's easy
to sit amongst like minded people all of you
saying the same thing, thinking the same thing,
and believing the same thing wiithout any outside
exposure to others. It's called Group Think. Like living in a bubble. Eventually you begin to assume that anyone who does not think your way, talk the same talk, nor believe the same thing
are, somehow, inferior less than yourselves. YOu
look down on them, ridicule them, belittle them,
mock and laugh at them believing they are stupid,
inferior, country bumpkins, or idiots. You look
down on them and show them no respect for anything they believe, love, or have.

That's the behavior, the conduct. It has many descriptions; bigotry, or supremacists, or elitism, or arrogance.

Reading the many posts here of hatred, anger, hostility, and bitterness directed not only towards President Bush but, against everyone
who voted for him I realized you people, you Liberals in the Democratic Party are arrogant bigots. Not one of you has had anything respectful, considerate, nor congratulatory to say
towards anyone who voted the opposite of what you
believed everyone should vote.

It has been a never ending tirade against people
who disagreed with your position. How sorry for you. Reading these posts I imagine a group of "adults", that word used with reservation, lying on the floor pounding and kicking their feet and wailing and whining about how they did not get their way. Get over it.

You have done nothing but wail & whine about doom and gloom, end of the world as we know it, these
are dark days. You've ballied on and on about the
people who disagreed with your positions and now
its "very dangerous", "continue to get more dangerous", and now we're back to the 1930's? Do you people do nothing but look backwards?

Is this how low Liberalism has sunk? Is this what
the Democratic Party has become? A group of sorry
ass, arrogant, cry baby bigots? Good grief how
utterly pathetic. And I actually believed you
people deserved respect and praise? Call me a sucker.

Word to the wise, you best get used to it. We are
going to take back Our Party, the Democratic Party, and restore it to the ideals of John
F. Kennedy, of Roosevelt. Liberals and the leftists have had 30+ years and have done nothing
but dragged the Party down into the sewers and We are going to take Our Party back. This isn't about hatred, race, color, creed, religion, nor lifestyle this is about Common Sense and Reason where ALL are welcome with the same respect and consideration and nobody is looked down upon. This is about personal responsibility, accountability, hard work, dignity, self respect, honor, integrity, tolerance, and morality tempered with common sense, respect, and reason.

Get used to it... and NO it is not dangerous here
for anyone nor is it going to get more dangerous.
Stop trying to start or spread rumors... That's
all BullShit!!!!

The people in the blue states and the expats are the ones that actually have a passport and talk to other people in the world... and you think we're the ones that engage in group think?

delal

Yes Chrish it's me - Del!

Yep I know I've been away for a while - I'm heavily involved in a new venture and I just couldn't spare the time to annoy the expats... hehehe...

Again - the responses that follow up my posts always put a smile on my face. It's startling how the cons posted are strange to me!

Take for instance - the gay issue. Most people that live in the US know someone that is gay. Many actually interact with gays in a multitude of ways - all throughout this great country! Dare I say - I actually know gays in the south!

Amazing huh! The point is - we in this country 'live and let live'. What we don't want is having it shoved in our faces and we want certain things like marriage to be left alone.

Bush, like me and most are not against the gay lifestyle - to each thier own. Like Bush - there should equal rights when it comes to such things as employment but don't tread on the sanctity of marriage between a man & a woman.

Call it something else - like gay unions.

So the point again being - this convoluted thinking that because we are against gay marriage that suddenly we are gay bashers...

C'mon now - get some common sense...

Chrish - hope all is well with you and the family - we're all okay on my side!

Chrish

I also have a passport and have talked to people from other countries and continue to do so {no name}, so why don't you come down from your pillar.

Yes, I do say you are in a bubble. If you're only
talking to like minded people who say the same thing, think the same thing, believe the same thing then you are in a bubble and have Group Think.

Would you ever sit down with people who don't
agree with your viewpoints and really sit down
and discuss with them the differences? Would
you ever allow someone who disagrees with you ever
sit down amonst you and really discuss your differences in a respectful manner? My guess would be a resounding No.

You claim you don't want any religious values, morals, or conservative values thrown in your face
yet, that's exactly what you've been doing; shoving it in everyone elses face. Considering
all things I wouldn't be surprised if those in
the European countries who also share in conservative values take courage from what has happened here in the US and a backlash occurs there in the their next elections. Then where
will those who want to renounce their US citizenship go? The Middle East, the Arab countries?

The extremist Liberal mentality that has taken over classical Liberalism, based upon those maps, clearly does not have a majority as you and everyone else believed you had. What are the responses to that show of Democracy? Anger, hatred, paranoia, distain, disgust, whining, wailing, and baseless nonsense of the 1930's; fearmongering.

For over a year now those on this site and elsewhere have been clamoring about Democracy,
the right to vote, Freedom of the People, on and
on and on. Now, after all the hard work, dedication, and determination that both sides have done, and that very principle has been
exercised the best that you can come out with
is more condemnation, more of your name calling,
more of your hatred and disgust because the majority of the People did not vote your way?
How friggin pathetic and childish can that be?

Even your own candidate, John Kerry, came out
congratulated and acted in a dignified and honorable manner. Talked about healing and reuniting and all you can do is the opposite?

I'm beginning to believe that the events of 9/11
showed us not only the maniacal hatred of radical
madmen like Usama but, it also revealed what Liberals are really all about; divisiveness, hatred, anger, paranoia, distain for those who
disagree, arrogant, and disrespectful toward others. You will use any means available to get
your way; fearmongering, racism, bigotry, divisiveness, hatred, and anger. Whatever the cause, whatever the victim you've got a neatly
categorized, pigeon-holed, group to drag out and
raise up as a victim being victimized by someone or something and it requires "Government" to take care of. Illegal immigrants are no longer "Illegal" they're immigrants, undocumented
migrants, document-challened individuals.

Those who are opposed to gay marriages are homophobic. Assinine, utterly assinine. We just
disagree and where that question came up the People made their voices heard through their votes. Have some respect for that. You're the
ones who've bantering on about Democracy, Freedom,
Rights, the right to vote, let the people speak.
Is this another one of those double standards thing? All of that stuff about Democracy, the
right to vote, Freedom, letting the people speak
is only good so long as its your way? Is that what you're now saying?

"You don't always get what you want." The Rolling
Stones.

Delal:

You had me agreeing with you and Cherish which is amazing enough in itself until you said this:

"there should equal rights when it comes to such things as employment but don't tread on the sanctity of marriage between a man & a woman."

Now, pardon me if I may sound, how shall I put it, "up front"
But WHO THE HELL ARE YOU OR ANYONE to have the gall to define for me what is "the sanctity of a marriage?"

In My America, there is freedom of religion. I am not gay and personally I could care less who is or isn’t gay. Like you say, live and let live. But the very point of American democracy is the GURANTEE that the government does not push its morality on the people. And no matter how you say it, defining what constitutes a marriage is a matter of religious principle. Bush has freely admitted that he makes his decisions based on "faith."

That in itself is a load of shit !!
The president should represent ALL the people and I take personal offense to having my president rule according to his own personal religious faith.

I happen to be a non-religious Jew, kind of an agnostic but not really an outright atheist. But Having lived in san Francisco and grown up in New York, I am proud to call myself part of the America that embraces ALL lifestyles, religions,
races, etc. Is there perfect harmony all the time? Of course not. But you mislabel us by calling all 53 million of us who hate Bush as being "liberal leftists". I am unaffiliated.

But I want a government that RESPECTS the current law of the land. If you are raised pro-life, that is your right and I respect it. But you give up the right to promote that view when you act as the commander in chief as long as abortion is LEGAL.

People are scared because we do NOT want to regress back 30 or 40 years in time. Bush g0overns based on a personal ideology and I'm sure he really believes it. But in my America, the president admits mistakes like every other human and keeps his religious "faith" to himself.

Chrish

ebg,

"I have every reason to fear the religious right. They will not stop until I have NO rights."?

Do you honestly believe that We would allow those
knuckle heads to do such a thing? I, for my part,
assure you I would be one of the first to stand
up to them and I don't believe I would be alone.
The right wing extremists are just as bad as the
left wing extremists. We don't want extremism,
we want balance, equilibrium, common sense, reason, and moderation. Neither side exhibits
those qualities.

Your rights, your lifestyle is safe and will continue to be safe We will not allow anything
but that. I do not harbor anything but good will
for you, your mate, your friends, your family and
I firmly believe that I am not alone in that position... Whatever the rumors, the fearmongering going on it's nothing but mindless chatter. You'll see.

rodi

Chrish:

I hope for everyone's sake that you are right but I fear otherwise once the new Supreme Court is all conservative. How is that fair ? I simply don't want the law of the land changed based on people whose viewpoints are rooted in the deep south or the midwest.

You claim all is well but I'm telling you from living here in Alberta that this part of the country simply can NOT identify with the progressive attitudes of the east and west coast. They want status quo which means "listen to anything your conservative president says"

Yes I resepct the fact that the conservatives outnumber the others (I refuse to call us all liberals) but I think they are out of touch with the real world. In the 21st century, stem cell research can save thousands of lives in this lifetime. Even Schwazennager SUPPORTED PUBLIC FUNDING ($2 billion worth of bonds) in California for stem cell research. That shows you how even a Republican governor knows that trying to postpone important research based on religious beliefs is OUT OF TOUCH with reality.

Chrish

Rodi,

I also have reservations about stacking the Supreme Courts with conservatives just as I did
when it was being stacked with Liberals. Neither
works. Like I said I would prefer balance, judges
who base their decisions on the law and the constitution not their personal beliefs or agenda.
That, to me, is not justice nor really the will of the People. What bothered me and so many others was judges and mayors deciding, to all intents and purposes, that it didn't matter what
the people willed they would do as they pleased.
That, also, is not justice.

For me one of the criterias for appointing a judge
should be whether their personal beliefs, opinions, or agenda are going to get in the way
of the law and the Constitution. We have an incredible diversity of people but, We are all Americans. No "xxxxxx-" preceding the word American. That, to me, is divisive and only serves to categorize and pigeon hole people into
nice neat little boxes. If we are to become truly
color, race, religion, creed, or ethnicity blind
then why do We insist on categorizing people. I
do not care what color a person is, what race they are, what religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, or whatever they are. It doesn't matter, it's irrelevant. The only thing that truly matters is the character of the person nothing less nothing more.

Yes, there are still those who still have not grasped that reality and may believe they can
now put us back in time like the radical fundamentalists but, quite honestly, I don't believe they would ever be allowed to do that.
Time will not be turned back nor will the great
strides in equality that we have made over the
past several decades be undone.

Regarding Stem Cell Research, to be honest from what I've read about the research I question the
validity of embryonic stem cell research. Consider, embryonic stem cell research has been
going on for 20+ years and the only thing it has
produced is tumors, rejection, and mutations. If
embryonic stem cell research held such promise then why aren't investors jumping on the band wagon for something that would surely give them
profits? Consider also, that adult stem cell research has produced much more promise and possiblities then its counterpart. The other problem I had with that proposition was the idea that the taxpayers were going to hand over $2 Billion to the Bio-Techs with an oversight committee comprised of individuals that have a vested interest in the research. Tell me that
isn't a conflict of interest. Notice I said
nothing about religion.

Gov. Schwarzenegger has done awesome things in California and I hope he continues to stymie the
status quo. God knows they need a good shaking up. However, not everything he's done has been all good or all positive but, that could be the brick heads and the Special Interest Groups that still control Sacramento. They're the ones still
trying to push through more taxes, refuse to do anything about the out of control illegal immigration, and still expect the taxpayers to pay for those illegal immigrants.

I recall when I was a kid and joined the Navy to go off to fight Communism in Vietnam. Naive in our belief "Our country right or wrong.". Same applies whether Democrat or Republican. "My party
right or wrong." is utter nonsense. The politicians on both sides need to have Us on their backs constantly. We need to maintain our
attention on what they are doing or not doing and
We need to hold them accountable. We have not done that. Instead we've assumed, wrongly, that
all's well and they, the politicians, will take care of everything. Wrong!! Politicians don't always do what is right nor what the People want and expect. We need to be watchful and pay attention to what they're doing and jump flat on their backs when they get out of line.

Whether it be Bush, or Kerry, or Clinton, or Edwards, or Obama, as much as I like him, or any other politician We, both Liberal and Conservative and Moderate (The People), need to keep an eye on them and keep them in check. If
We, The People, expect our politicians to do their jobs then We need to make it known what We want and expect on all the issues. Remember We are their employers and We are their bosses not
the other way around. My hope is that all of Us
have come to that realization and continue watching them.

Yes, I realize that like the extremists in the Liberals there are also extremists in the Conservatives; Left wing, Right wing. Both are
out of line, both are out of touch, and both are dangerous. They also are the ones that need to
watched and kept in check just like the fundamentalist Muslims and the fundamentalist Christians. Both, in there own way, are dangerous and need to be stopped when they get out of line.

I'm a Catholic, a Christian but, I don't blindly accept everything that I'm told nor do I blindly accept what a Falwell or the other evangelicals say. Like the Left Wing or the Right Wing, to me, they're out of touch with the very teachings they expound. They don't get it either and I belive I'm not the only one who has that opinion or belief.

My hope is that Bush after having seen the division in Our People will have learned and use
prudence, wisdom, and common sense when selecting
those who will sit on the Supreme Court. He did
say that he wanted people who would base their decisions on the law and the Constitution not
their personal beliefs nor agenda. Great, I applaud that position and I hold him to that statement as well we all should hold him to that
statement.

Judges not agendas on the Supreme Court...

ebg

Chrish: No, I do not believe that YOU, personally, would ever want the knuckleheads to deprive me of my natural rights as a human being. You are far too decent for that. But I do believe that too many other people in the US, confident that "it could never happen here," would turn a willful or an ignorant blind eye while I and others like me were made into permanent second class citizens...or worse.

I have spent a fair amount of time in Berlin recently (couple of months, all told) and one of the things that affected me most profoundly was an exhibit showing how the Nazi state was installed with the COLLUSION of upstanding members of German society who proudly called themselves "traditional" and "conservative" and surely would never have called themselves fascist or anti-Semitic in any way.

The problem with fascism is that it creeps. Many people who think they are voting for what is good and right, and supporting what is moral, can over time be slowly duped into supporting a fascist state, all the while continuing to believe that they are supporting wholesome, traditional and even "Christian" values.

NO, I am NOT saying that the USA has become or is becoming a fascist state. Much more would have to happen in order for me to say that. But I see eerie parallels between the beginnings of that state in Germany and what has been happening in America over the last ten years. Yes, even with a Democratic president. It has gotten worse since 2000, however.

I moved to England three years ago. My life has improved in EVERY way since moving here. I've even lost 35 pounds!

When gays come up in the national debate here--which is rarely--the discussion is about how to fairly accomodate and support our relationships. Not about how to make sure we cannot have basic rights such as hospital visitation, inheritance and a host of others.

I would be a fool to go back to the US at this point.

rodi

Chrish:

First of all, I want to applaud your last commentary and tell you how refreshing it is for me to find any kind of internet discussion board where people can debate intelligently. You are obviously a very good hearted person with good intentions and you articulate your thoughts very well.

Having said that, I would like to invoke a few thoughts about some of your comments (also to ebg's)

Regarding stem-cell and investing: There was an article in The Calgary Herald today about a major breakthrough for the treatment of the blind that involves simple stem-cells. There are countless possibilities. As an employee of the financial markets for 20+ years I can tell you that the reason there has been no major investing is because investors and creditors stay far away from any ideas that involve controversial issues, particularly when religion is involved. That is what gave rise to socially responsible mutual funds. I hate to bring up the issue of morality because I don't want to step on anyone's moral beliefs but think of it this way:

40 years ago nobody would even mention the "a" word. And if you watch "American Dreams", look at how they treat the gay guy. He was fired because a gay person was simply not acceptable in the mainstream. My point is that attitudes change and tend to get more progressive. Most blue staters agree that Bush represents an America of the past where the US dictated what was right for the world (ie: ridding the world of the evil USSR)

Right as we make real scientific strides, he makes it fashionable again to tell us what defines a marriage (clearly a religious belief), tries to bring gays back in the closet by telling them that although they may no be discriminated against, they have no right to benefits that other Americans enjoy, and fools all the people that simply don't understand diversity into thinking he's a "regular" guy.

I'm not trying to put down average folks but let's face it. Facts don't lie. All these red state people can read the same books as I do (Against all enemies, The Lies of George W Bush,
Plan of Attack) All are written by non partisan
authors (an anti-terror czar that served under 4 presidents, an ex speechwriter and a Canadian to boot and one of the most respected journalists of our time) Ignorance is bliss and most of these hardcore GOP supporters are simply not willing to ascertain exactly what he really did in his first term. As a pert-time writer, I believe in educating yourself before you let the media or a TV ad warp your opinions.

But a large majority of America is blue collar, relatively uneducated and simply not that smart. So it's the Republican right wing that outsmarts the Dems by making sure that each and every one of these "simple folks" cast a vote for a "regular guy". Do you really think a lawyer can ever appeal to these people?

And that's what scares me. As ebg alluded to, I don't imply that we are turning into a fascist state but you gotta admit: what he says about ideals creeping into a society disguised as one thing but being the total opposite is very real and I also agree that if the blue states retreat and flee the USA, we may wind up with Pat Robertson or David Duke as a "legitimate" candidate.

Finally, I reiterate this point: I worked in 5 WTC for 5 years so 9/11 is more personal to me than all these red staters. But I have a legitimate reason to be fearful. These people in the backwoods DO NOT !!! They will not blow up Lincoln, Nebraska or Gatlin, Tennessee. Note how those who should fear the most (New Yorkers and Californians and suburban Washington) voted BLUE because they are not fooled by color coded terror threats, a department of homeland security and a Fascist doctrine disguised as the "Patriot Act" that lets the government detain ANYONE ANYTIME for NO REASON.

rodi

>I haven't heard of anyone going to jail or disappearing because they expressed their views against the President.

Umm
Perhaps you missed the scene in Farenheit 911 where the governemnet staked out community groups and senior citizens for having the unmitigated gall to express an opinion that was "unpatriotic"

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